How old is UA actually

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How old is UA actually

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:37 pm

I don't mean when it came out, that date I know. No, i mean how old is the story itself?

Looking back at the earliest Discworld novels (re-reading Mort atm) I noticed something:

Take the established characters and 'tweaks' connected to them from UA and you got a novel that would fit right in with the first four or five Discworld Novels.
Back then the orc as he is would have, IMHO, fitting into the stories much better as back then things were much more if not mainly over-the-top parodies.

Therefore, could it be that UA was actually written around the time of CoM or ER, but was never published and just got tweaked a bit to 'fit' into the universe as it is now?
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:43 am

No!

The Faculty as we now know them only really appeared when Ridcully took over in Moving Pictures. I know you don't like the book, but it's stylistically completely different to the early books.
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Postby Jason » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:50 am

The idea of UA is certainly a bit older than its published date because I remember Terry talking about the next novel being about football about two or three books before UA came out.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:59 am

Jason wrote:The idea of UA is certainly a bit older than its published date because I remember Terry talking about the next novel being about football about two or three books before UA came out.
He was talking about it in 2005 at Clarecraft. :)
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Postby Dotsie » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:13 am

The whole thing was definitely written recently though, it's certainly in his more recent style.

I'm not sure that I would agree that characters have got more or less over the top though.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:29 pm

Not only is Ridcully Archchancellor but the Bursar has disappeared (to his Auntie's? :roll: ) and the Dean has landed on Brazeneck College (lately a School of Conjuring :lol: ) - so well, well after the time of CoM and LF... :wink:
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Postby LilMaibe » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:41 pm

I'm am fully aware that Ridcully, Ponder and Co are 'younger' than CoM. But that is what I was musing about:

Could it be that UA was originally written around the time of CoM, without the faculty, etc as it is and instead a cast of 'random' wizards, an unnamed patrician, an unnamed noble in an unnamed country instead of Margolotta in Uberwald etc.
And that things like Brazeneck, Hex and maybe even the CC where just squeezed in?
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Postby stripy_tie » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:57 pm

LilMaibe wrote:I'm am fully aware that Ridcully, Ponder and Co are 'younger' than CoM. But that is what I was musing about:

Could it be that UA was originally written around the time of CoM, without the faculty, etc as it is and instead a cast of 'random' wizards, an unnamed patrician, an unnamed noble in an unnamed country instead of Margolotta in Uberwald etc.
And that things like Brazeneck, Hex and maybe even the CC where just squeezed in?


Yeah i really don't see it, it's completely different to his earlier stuff. He may have had the very vaguest idea that he wanted to write something to do with football but authors sometimes have ideas floating around for decades before they take any meaningful shape.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:59 pm

I haven't a clue. The only person who would know is Terry.

If you are asking whether Terry was going to write a book about football back then - I doubt it.

The first two books are a very different style and are more about parody of other Fantasy books.
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Postby LilMaibe » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:06 pm

Tonyblack wrote:I haven't a clue. The only person who would know is Terry.

If you are asking whether Terry was going to write a book about football back then - I doubt it.

The first two books are a very different style and are more about parody of other Fantasy books.


That is the thing I mean.
As a full-blown parody on general fantasy UA and especially the orc would work. But not as a character that is to be taken as well developed and thought-through.
Same with the story itself.
It breaks with an amount of basic-world-defining-continuity and involves too many plot-convenient coincidences that it would be believable even for a world that does run on narrativium.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:19 pm

You really are determined to find fault with this book, aren't you? :lol:

I don't like Making Money, but I've accepted that it doesn't work for me and that other people enjoyed it. I don't much like Moving Pictures either, but it's one of Terry's books and I can't make him un-write it no matter how hard I wish.

Why not have an orc in a later book? Discworld is still a fantasy world full of fantasy creatures. Just because Terry started off by writing parody doesn't change the Discworld when he changed his style of writing. If it did we wouldn't have all the weird and wonderful characters that have appeared throughout the series.
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Postby pip » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:20 pm

Terry brought the Dwarves, trolls, golems , vampires , werewolves etc from outside of society and the city and developed the species to a more human form . Orcs just happen to have been the latestt one in UA and obviously another species in Snuff for those who have read it.

This trend goes right through the mid to late DW books and definitely not the early ones.

Therefore the theme for me would be a much later development than Terry was toying with at the CoM stage.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:35 pm

And, to a degree, Mr Nutt is a commentary on disposable people.

Orcs were created by man in the distant past to be viciously aggressive - as 'shock-troops' in some forgotten war. After the war they became an embarrassment and there seems to have been an attempt at first demonising them and then disposing of them.

It's, I think, a comment on how a country trains young men and women for war, turns them into killers and then is not interested in how they adapt back into society.
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Postby pip » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:36 pm

Genius stuff. :lol:
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Postby LilMaibe » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:44 pm

Tonyblack wrote:You really are determined to find fault with this book, aren't you? :lol:


Actually I'm determined to find something good about the book.
I think I'm guilty of being one of the persons that want an explanation for everything that strikes them as off and won't stop till they get it. :|

EDIT: Once again: this is my view on things. YMMV, and I respect that, as long as you respect my opinion.
Thank you :)
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