Guards! Guards! Discussion Group *Spoilers*

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Postby bikkit » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:35 pm

Kind of...sweet in a way
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Postby Cheery » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:36 pm

WeeKelda wrote:Kind of...sweet in a way


What, Errol an the dragon or Vimes and Sybil?
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Postby bikkit » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:38 pm

Errol and the dragon. Didn't see that bottom bit of your post!
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Postby MattK » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:41 pm

Yeah, sorry about the tangent.

One of my favorite parts was when Carrot, Nobby, and Colon were trying to figure out the best position for Fred to be in to make it a perfect 1,000,000/1 chance. It reminded me so much of a Python sketch.
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Postby Cheery » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:42 pm

MattK wrote:Yeah, sorry about the tangent.

One of my favorite parts was when Carrot, Nobby, and Colon were trying to figure out the best position for Fred to be in to make it a perfect 1,000,000/1 chance. It reminded me so much of a Python sketch.


Me too! :lol:

(Sorry, I'm trailing off again...)
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:50 pm

Cheery wrote:You know, I was very surprised when Errol wandered (or flew) off with the big dragon. I never would've expected that. :shock:

As for Vimes and Sybil: That one was obvious, really.
Don't you think there was a sort of connection between them all? A big nobel female and a scruffy runt of a male getting together. :D
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Postby Cheery » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:03 pm

Tonyblack wrote:
Cheery wrote:You know, I was very surprised when Errol wandered (or flew) off with the big dragon. I never would've expected that. :shock:

As for Vimes and Sybil: That one was obvious, really.
Don't you think there was a sort of connection between them all? A big nobel female and a scruffy runt of a male getting together. :D


I guess that's the reason it's so obvious. :lol:
As it is: I think they're an adorable couple
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Postby Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:50 pm

Tonyblack wrote:
Cheery wrote:You know, I was very surprised when Errol wandered (or flew) off with the big dragon. I never would've expected that. :shock:

As for Vimes and Sybil: That one was obvious, really.
Don't you think there was a sort of connection between them all? A big nobel female and a scruffy runt of a male getting together. :D


Like a double entendre on porpoise? :D
Aha! So, Bob's yer uncle... very clever.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:37 pm

One thing I don't understand is this;

On page 21 (paperback) in the footnote about "Eye-watering words" it says a "gaskin" is a "shy, grey-brown bird of the coot family".

Yet 3 pages later it says the Guard who died was called "Gaskin".

Now, it's a million to one chance that it's purely co-incidental, so why are there two "Gaskins"?
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Postby Trish » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:16 am

There are references to "poor, old Gaskin" through the book.
He was old (never showed in Night Watch, though) and that made him a "coot" and he was definitely close to the ground after he got caught. Err --caught up, I mean.


I did not love this book the first few times I read it. Then my daughter got hold of it and was laughing out loud, reading passages to me with inflections I had not paid attention to. Now, I love it.


Carrot is the catalyst between the old and new Ankh-Morporks (just as Sybil's swamp dragons have diminished in their glory, so has AM). He embodies the spirit of the "old" AM and its future, politically and socially. V&V both know this.

Carrot professes no interest in either his birthmark or his sword, but he does nothing to negate Vetinari's surmise.


True, his character can be wooden and old-fashioned, but Carrot's job is to be all things to all men. He can be a dwarf and a human, both, just as he can be a king and a copper. Titles don't matter, getting the job done matters.

I think Carrot has more in common with Vetinari than we may believe.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:21 am

Trish wrote:There are references to "poor, old Gaskin" through the book.
He was old (never showed in Night Watch, though) and that made him a "coot" and he was definitely close to the ground after he got caught. Err --caught up, I mean.


Utter twaddle! :lol:
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Postby kakaze » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:26 am

I didn't like the inital physical characteristics of the characters, particularly Carrot and Lady Ramkin.

Why did they both need to be described, repeatedly, as being so large?

I'm also glad that Pratchett stopped making references to Ramkin's wigs. Having her be bald just didn't seem to add anything to the story for me. it also made me wonder why any of the high-society women involved would want to raise dragons.

Women: would any of you want to raise a pet that burns holes in your floors & clothes, smells like a tannery, causes hair-loss, and might explode at any time?
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Postby MattK » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:45 am

kakaze wrote:I didn't like the inital physical characteristics of the characters, particularly Carrot and Lady Ramkin.

Why did they both need to be described, repeatedly, as being so large?


Perhaps to mirror their importance in helping Vimes realize that he's a better man than he has convinced himself he is?
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:31 am

Trish wrote:There are references to "poor, old Gaskin" through the book.
He was old (never showed in Night Watch, though) and that made him a "coot" and he was definitely close to the ground after he got caught. Err --caught up, I mean.


Actually (and this isn't really a spoiler) there is a "Leggy" Gaskin in Night Watch. :D
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:10 am

kakaze wrote:I didn't like the inital physical characteristics of the characters, particularly Carrot and Lady Ramkin.

Why did they both need to be described, repeatedly, as being so large?

I'm also glad that Pratchett stopped making references to Ramkin's wigs. Having her be bald just didn't seem to add anything to the story for me. it also made me wonder why any of the high-society women involved would want to raise dragons.

Women: would any of you want to raise a pet that burns holes in your floors & clothes, smells like a tannery, causes hair-loss, and might explode at any time?


Hmmm? :P I'm wondering here whether you're a younger man than I thought Kakaze... You may have overlooked some important womanly attributes - and for once I think pooh may actually back me up with (some) of this...

Women are not logical for one thing - not with affairs of the hearts anyway and with animals in particular. Sybil is a stereotype built around a British posh aristocratic country lady - rather like the Queen in fact. She's not too pretty, not in the first flush, not too rich but rich enough for the things that interest her and, having been a bit of a failure in the romance stakes has been 'mad' about ponies and dogs all her life - Sybils the AM version and so it's swamp dragons with her but the comparison sticks. And this sort of Lady is a sucker for lost causes and loves to lavish their pent up affections on the underdragon... :P

She's the sort of woman who's completely disinterested in her own appearance 'cos nobody's ever bothered with her when she has tried to pull out all the stops, so she doesn't care that her hair's so constantly singed, she just wears a wig when she 'needs' to - which isn't very often. Clothes the same, no interest whatsoever, because they've never done her any good and all they have to do now is be low maintenance and offer some protection from her anxious mothering to her child substitutes, the swamp dragons

Have you ever seen the French & Saunders 'posh old country ladies' sketches? They're the Roundworld Sybils :lol:

As for the large people aspect - both Sybil and Carrot (for whom I adhere to the brilliant in this book, boring as **** after that faction) both have unconscious charisma, which is of course the most compelling kind. Part of that is bound up in their physicality - they almost have to be big and beefy and imposing to achieve their 'presence'. Sybil works better than Carrot because she's much more flexible and human in her enthusiasms (she transfers her compassion for the dragons to Vimes and even to Nobby because she's sensitive to their nature and sees the good in them - well in Sam anyway :wink: ). Carrot's the same but less specific, 'cos he's cast into the noble knight mould but not in a personal way so much and that's why he's less interesting as a character later on when he's no longer the new cop in town...

As a small (in height) person - I can tell you that height matters. Someone who towers over you can be physically scary at times, but with these two they're kind and protective and this is both endearing and awe-inspiring - Terry's just giving them the bodies to go with their differing kinds of charisma - maybe over-doing the emphasis a bit but for a reason :lol:
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