Alternate Universe Carrot and Vimes (Speculation)

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Alternate Universe Carrot and Vimes (Speculation)

Postby Falooda » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:55 pm

Spoilers and Mild Speculation for the Watch books follow...
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Pratchett once mentioned in an interview a few years back (I can't remember which one) that he had initially planned to write the book in which Vetinari dies and Carrot is about to become the king, leading to a second Ankh Morpork Civil War with a big Carrot v/s Vimes showdown.

Ultimately, Pratchett decided not to write it because:

a) The plot was too big to fit into one book, and he didn't like the idea of splitting it into two or three books.
b) It would change the face of Ankh Morpork and the Watch forever, and there would be no going back.
c) Vetinari was far, far too great a character to kill off (the main reason, of course).

I always wondered why Pratchett didn't just set it in an alternate Discworld universe (the other leg of the Trousers of Time). Then, at the end, he could have it all turn out to be a bad dream of Carrot's as he wakes up in the Trouser leg in which it did NOT happen and heaves a sigh of relief.

I know it's not likely to happen but I would really love to read such a book. We readers could then have our cake and eat it too. It's just that I was a big fan of Carrot in the earlier Watch books, but in the recent books, he seems to be really stuck in a rut with no new character development at all. In the few scenes that he does appear in, he is quite boring and repetitive. This is just one possibility through which we can finally see some much needed character development in him.
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Postby LilMaibe » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:03 pm

AU-Stories are to my knowledge regarded as something you can do as extra or a free-give-away story (free-online now-a-days) (unless it's the star wars franchise, but we don't talk about that)

After all, how WOULD you or anyone else actually feel if there'd be such a story, anticipating the end, wonder after the climax how future stories will run now and Vetinari steps from the shower?
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:25 pm

Welcome to the site, Falooda! :D


I have to say that I'm really, really glad that Terry didn't write that for so many reasons.

Not least being that, unlike you, I'm not a Carrot fan and, apart from his appearance in Guards! Guards!, (where he actually served a useful role as a literary device for introducing us to the Watch and Ankh Morpork), I've thought him to be a stagnant character with slightly less than two dimensions.

Also, getting rid of Vetinari makes no sense whatsoever as that character is a creation of pure genius.

The idea of a trousers of time type adventure would be for me, like those Alternate Universe episodes of Star Trek DS9 and I really dislike those even though I'm a huge fan of Star Trek.

All I can say is that this sort of story is almost what fan fiction was invented for . . . just don't expect me to read it. :wink:
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Postby LilMaibe » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:40 pm

Tonyblack wrote:All I can say is that this sort of story is almost what fan fiction was invented for . . . just don't expect me to read it. :wink:


*makes a sad face*
Won't you even give mine a try :cry: :oops: :cry:
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:57 pm

Sorry Meeps. Fan fiction doesn't interest me in the slightest.
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Postby Falooda » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:11 am

LilMaibe wrote:After all, how WOULD you or anyone else actually feel if there'd be such a story, anticipating the end, wonder after the climax how future stories will run now and Vetinari steps from the shower?


Extremely embarassed. Especially if he steps out without a towel on. :wink:
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:19 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually, the very fact that anyone has come up with a plot is probably a good reason why it won't happen. Terry has said that he doesn't read fan fiction or discussions of his books because there have been situations where an author has written a book and a so-called fan has then insisted that the author had pinched their idea. :roll:
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Postby LilMaibe » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:28 am

Tonyblack wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually, the very fact that anyone has come up with a plot is probably a good reason why it won't happen. Terry has said that he doesn't read fan fiction or discussions of his books because there have been situations where an author has written a book and a so-called fan has then insisted that the author had pinched their idea. :roll:


I never understood how fans could do that. Especially since I knowand heard of a few cases and each bleeding time their fanfiction consisted of the frigging OBVIOUS.
As in, it was obvious that , let's call them, Bob and Lydia would be together by the next book, someone wrote a very basic fanfiction about their marriage and then complained author X 'stole' the idea of them being together...

WTH?

But honestly.
I dare say IF Sir Terry would read fanfiction and lift ideas from them, he'd proper credit them. Which would be a lot of honour.
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Postby Falooda » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:13 pm

This is the link to the interview:

http://www.sfrevu.com/php/Review-id.php?id=9475

It is quite a long and interesting one. I am posting the relevant bit here:

Terry: I actually wondered what would happen if there was a second Ankh-Morpork Civil War, and it would be quite interesting to see how it went, but I'm not particularly planning for it to happen.

Emily: I'm kind of glad. Too many characters I like would probably die.

Terry: Well--or would they?

Emily:
You never know, with you.

Terry: And indeed, you could have a lot of fun asking questions like "who would end up on whose side?" You know--just think of the existing City Watch, and wonder how they would divide.

Emily: Right. Well, and if you thought about who would end up if it was Carrot versus Vimes, you know, if Carrot decided he wanted to do the "king thing." I mean, obviously you've set it up so that doesn't happen, because Carrot follows Vimes, even though he doesn't have to--

Terry: Well, Carrot follows Vimes, but equally, lots of people have observed, and I'm glad they have; Carrot knows what he's doing; and even Vimes, I think, has occasionally wondered what Carrot actually thinks about it, behind it all. And Carrot's basic treatment of Angua--it almost would appear to be quite despicable. On the other hand, the way she acts isn't... but he just assumes she's going to be there, and when she's not there, he sort of just rides off to get her back. He hasn't really got the whole boy-girl romance thing totally sorted out, I think.
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Postby Falooda » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:36 pm

Yet another interview:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WOSSNAME/message/342

This is an extract:

{TP} Sometimes he's considered writing about Carrot becoming
king, but since it would require at least two books -- the second
to deal with the civil war that would result -- and would radically
change the nature of Discworld and everything that happens
afterward, it's a plot that he's chosen to avoid. There are so many
other things he wants to write about right now. Besides, what
would happen to Vetinari? He's got such a lot of lovely lines in
Making Money; it would be a shame to lose him.
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Postby Ziriath » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:19 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Welcome to the site, Falooda! :D


I have to say that I'm really, really glad that Terry didn't write that for so many reasons.

Not least being that, unlike you, I'm not a Carrot fan and, apart from his appearance in Guards! Guards!, (where he actually served a useful role as a literary device for introducing us to the Watch and Ankh Morpork), I've thought him to be a stagnant character with slightly less than two dimensions.

Also, getting rid of Vetinari makes no sense whatsoever as that character is a creation of pure genius.

The idea of a trousers of time type adventure would be for me, like those Alternate Universe episodes of Star Trek DS9 and I really dislike those even though I'm a huge fan of Star Trek.

All I can say is that this sort of story is almost what fan fiction was invented for . . . just don't expect me to read it. :wink:


Completely agree. I am a huge ST fan and I see it the same.

Speaking of the point of splitting the legs of the Trousers, I think it would be in Men at arms, when Vetinari had not been distracted by Vimes, so he did not stand up and has been shot in his chest. (I hope I got the tenses right)
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Postby Maura:-D » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:34 pm

I love the Patrician. Sorry I forgot how to spell his name :oops:
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Postby Australis » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:31 pm

Despite Tonyblack's misgivings about fanfic (some of which I heartily share) I nevertheless have written a couple, stories I really wanted to 'read', that TP wouldn't do, and they work for me. They're out there if you look for them.

One I wanted to do was the flip side of Jingo, the world where the other Disorganiser went, where the Klatchian army came to Ankh-Morpork and therew was a glorious last stand. I figured it would be a bit longer than I could spare the time for. But it's always a possibility.
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Postby Quinn_Inuit » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:52 am

Yeah, I'd hate to lose Vetinari. He's just awesome.

IMO, there are a few characters out there that are just amazing, almost unique. And given the massive amount of stuff in the fiction aether, unique isn't very easy. Terry Pratchett has written an unusual number of them (IMO, Rincewind, Death, Vetinari, and Granny Weatherwax all qualify--others might include Bun-bun, Dumbledore, Richard the Warlock, Mad Bob the Avenger, Agatha the Girl Genius, and the Jaegergenerals).

Australis wrote:Despite Tonyblack's misgivings about fanfic (some of which I heartily share) I nevertheless have written a couple, stories I really wanted to 'read', that TP wouldn't do, and they work for me. They're out there if you look for them.

One I wanted to do was the flip side of Jingo, the world where the other Disorganiser went, where the Klatchian army came to Ankh-Morpork and therew was a glorious last stand. I figured it would be a bit longer than I could spare the time for. But it's always a possibility.


That's definitely fertile ground for something cool...in fact, that's what I initially thought this thread was about.
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Postby Ziriath » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:03 pm

I have nothing against good fanfiction- but I don't want to wade through a river of slash and Mary Sue-ness, searching for unlucky good pieces sunken somewhere there. Sometimes I feel disgusted just from reading the annotations.

But a story of alternate Jingo seems very interesting to me.
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