Vimes and Vetinari - friends, enemies or what?

[Tonyblack]

Vetinari, Havelock, Lord.
<snip>

Probably his greatest enemy is Commander Sir Samuel Vimes of the City Watch but, strangely, the person with whom he gets on the best - or least badly - is Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson of the same Watch. They share the same obsessive interest in the city itself.

<snip>

The above quote from the New Discworld Companion got me thinking. I don't think that Sam and Havelock get on, but "enemies"???

What do you think of their relationship?

[superfurryandy]

Political

I think they both have the same aim - to make the city work - Vimes from a people point of view, and Vetinari from a functional and precise point of view, and therein lies the rub - they both need the other.

[Who's Wee Dug]

Opponents but with each one's own idea as to what will make things work.

[Dotsie]

I've never thought of them as enemies. I mean, Vimes saved Vetinari's life - you couldn't hate a person who'd done that. And also, Vetinari thinks that he "created" Vimes, as he told Leonard Da Quirm one time.

As for what Vimes thinks of Vetinari, well I'll have to give that some more thought

[Jan Van Quirm]

Its a balance of aggravated respect and mutual goals which means they're possibly more like colleagues more than friends but with different methods - a bit like a more gutsy and intolerant Odd Couple situation where their strengths and weakness are supporting and complementary.

I think there are moral conflicts in there too in that Vimes doesn't like that Vetinari was once at least training to be a licenced killer (he never graduated the Assassins Guild I believe?) and Vetinari is definitely condescending in that he knows Vimes has less self-control and probably intelligence as well. He sees Sam more as a weapon or vital tool that he knows how to use and manipulate superbly - and Sam knows this and hates that he can do that so cynically and dispassionately.

As a team they work anyway and that pleases them both

[Cheery]

Well, they're neither friends, nor enimies. It's a sort of in-between-thing. Vimes doesn't actually hate Vetinari, he just doesn't trust him.
And Vetinari thinks, Vimes is very useful. But this doesn't mean that he likes Vimes.
Anyway, it's complicated. You can't really tell.

[chris.ph]

mutual respect is another thing theyve got in common and they both get the job done but thats mostly vetinari telling vimes the opposite of what he really wants him todo

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

I think they understand each other. They both seem to realize that they can work with each other. This is important in the world we live in too. When we learn to live together and make things work, life is better for everyone.

They learn things from each other and grow as characters because of that. Vetinari likes to think that he knows exactly how far to push peoples buttons, as in the case when he takes Vimes off a case and realizes later that Sam didn't punch the wall when he left the office as he usually did. It dawns on him that he may have gone too far.

That was the one where the Watch found him in the bar clutching something in his hand. They sent either Colon or Nobby to get some Klatchian Coffee to sober him up, and it wound up taking him through sobriety and completely out the other side, so that he woke up screaming. It was his badge in his hand. The one thing he refused to give up to Havelock.

I think they became something more than enemy/friends when Sam saved his life more than once. As he continues to get better at his job, Vimes is earning Vetinari's respect, and as he gets "closer?" to Havelock he learns that the Patrician has more depth than he suspected. I think this is a great developement in the Discworld series.

Vimes points out to Vetinari that Policeman comes from the word Polis meaning man of the city. Vetinari then asks Vimes to think about where and how the word Politician comes from.

He doesn't answer, just leaves the point hanging.

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

Political

I think they both have the same aim - to make the city work - Vimes from a people point of view, and Vetinari from a functional and precise point of view, and therein lies the rub - they both need the other.

Bingo, And as they get better at their Own lives and jobs they become more than friends, the word Comrades in Arms... is almost what I am looking for Two powerful personalities working together. You could substitute women, men. Whatever it is, it makes them work.

[mspanners]

Vetinari Has no friends, He has not made any in the books.. He can not afford the Luxury. As totalitarian ruler any friend could be used as a lever against Him by unscrupulous opponents and Vetinari knows this.

I think the closest that He has to a friend is Lonard of Quirm, He confides with Him and allows the man as much freedom as the Man wants so long as He has Leonard as a prize.

But the truth is that Vetinari see everyone as tool for His use, He is very good at finding cracks in personalities and the right levers.

He then piles the pressure on and watches the results with calculated joy.

The relationship between Vimes and Vetinari is one of mutual respect BUT be assured it is Vetinari who runs the City, Vimes wins the occasional small victory but only because Vetinari still needs Him..... IF Vimes (or Carrot) were to become a block to His plans they will find them selves expendable very quickly........ I think sometimes Vetinari may be thinking about a replacement for when He is gone and is considering Vimes or Carrot as next Patrician.... but this is only My gut feeling.

[Dotsie]

Vimes points out to Vetinari that Policeman comes from the word Polis meaning man of the city. Vetinari then asks Vimes to think about where and how the word Politician comes from.

He doesn't answer, just leaves the point hanging.

Was this really Vimes? I could have sworn it was Carrot. It's not the sort of thing that Vimes would know.

[Exp. Date, the rat]

I think that by the end of Night Watch they have become friends at a distance. Vimes understands that Vetinari needs to run the city and needs to be a bastard to do it and the same goes for Vetinari in regards to Vimes. Vimes needs to be a bastard to keep the city in check so he can't have real friends in the uppe crust, but since Vetinari saved Vimes life then he owes Vetinari something.

Each of them love AM and will do anything for it, but the are both Political Animals who need to work within their respective roles. I see that Vetinari give Vimes A LOT of room to move around in his job description and no one would do that if they didn't like and trust the person. So I say it is a little of both.

[mspanners]

IF Vimes or Carrot or anyone else got in the way of Vetinari and His plans for the City exile would be a minimum punishment, I do not think Vetinari would miss them at all.

As a schemer He would have a backup plan or replacement... we have seen this in Going Postal, Moist was just one of a line of unfortunates who were disposable...

Also remember Vetinari said to Drumknott that He thinks He had created Vimes when Drumknott spoke about Vimes in one of the books, when Vimes upset the Guilds, these are not the words of a friend but the words of a cold calculating Man...

Stalin and Hitler had friends and close colleagues but this did not stop them from liquidating them when required...

Vetinari whilst not having the insanity of these Dictators is still a Dictator.

If I were in Vimes or Carrots shoes I would watch my back......

[Bouncy Castle]

I think they're what is known as........... Frenemies.

[poohbcarrot]

I voted for "something else". They are definitely not friends, but they could be enemies;

"Gods, it made him livid, the way Vetinari turned him on and off like a switch - and had as much natural gratitude as an alligator. The Patrician relied on Vimes to do his job, knew he'd do his job, and that was the extent of his thought on the matter. Well, one day, Vimes would....would....would bloody well do his job, of course, because he didn't know how to do anything else. But realizing that made it worse."

"...you know Vimes'd probably take an axe to Vetinari if he thought he could get away with it. No love lost there, I fancy" - Dr Downey