Unseen Academicals - Revelation!

[LilMaibe]

Yes, but it seems a bit as if all other minorities have their support/groups that fight for their rights.
Except homosexuals.
It's a bit as if people in AM would rather scold someone for words or actions against vampires, undead, etc than for words or actions against homosexuals.
It's weird.

[One Man Bucket]

All races/cultures/species get grief and have snide remarks directed at them it's just unlike homosexuals they have people willing to champion their cause.
Let's take Golems for example they got and still get grief it's just now they're willing to stand up for themselves and Miss Dearheart is willing to raise her voice in their defence

[poohcarrot]

Golems are not a race. They are artificially intelligent machines and should all be smashed to pieces before it's too late!

(sorry about that! I was just getting in some practice for monday)

[LilMaibe]

All races/cultures/species get grief and have snide remarks directed at them it's just unlike homosexuals they have people willing to champion their cause.

That's what I meant. It's mind-boggling a bit.

[One Man Bucket]

All races/cultures/species get grief and have snide remarks directed at them it's just unlike homosexuals they have people willing to champion their cause.

That's what I meant. It's mind-boggling a bit.

My point is nobody has spoken up for them yet and/or they haven't reached the conclusion that there's power in numbers just like prior to 5th Elephant nobody thought twice about treating Golems like faecal matter.

[LilMaibe]

Just realized something else:

In the end, when the orc and Glenda go to the palace Drumknott has positioned guards with crossbows to shot them on command. Apparently he stationed them without Vetinari knowing after he seemed to have talked with Margolotta (after all, he looks at HER before he reveals that bit of information to the Patrician.)
When Vetinari says to stand the guards down her ladyship seems (to me) somewhere between puzzled and outraged.

Now, here's the thing:
The orc is nigh-immortal. The crossbow-bolts would be useless in the long run.
The bolts would only kill the orc's love-interest(Glenda), likely sending him in a berserker-rage and rampage through the palace and the city.
Now, Margolotta's ought to be FULLY AWARE of that, still she apparently suggested to Drumknott to place them guards there like that.

What the hell is the woman planning?

[AgProv]

Like Tony says, this is a book where Terry finally starts to look at gender confusion and homosexuality for real, rather than playing around it like in Monstrous regiment. Whilst it doesn't matter, it's still a valid point for discussion, but I can't remember enough of the book to say any more.

Hi Dotsie

I agree with you - Terry did introduce the Blue Cat Club and its proprietor Mr Harris in a previous book (Jingo), but only as a footnote - Rosie Palm was quoted as being his biggest supporter, quoted as saying "un-natural acts are only natural". Mr Harris also sits on the Seamstresses' Guild Council, thus implying gay men are not only tolerated, but quietly thrive, in Ankh-Morpork. It's a quantum leap forward from the first Discworld books, where part of the enmity between Heroes and Wizards is the homophobia of the former, who use "gay" as a slur against wizards, who resent it (Despite the implied homoerotica of typical Hero garb). And I believe if you go this far back (to The Light Fantastic) , you even have Terry talking about young student wizard apprentices running away from their masters out of "a lingering taste for heterosexuality", so even Terry played with the "many Wizards are actively predatorily gay" trope at one point...

how we have all advanced since then...

(To blow my own trumpet, and why not, the status of gays on the Discworld is something I've worked on in my fanfic... it appears to have garnered largely positive reviews so far...)

[Dotsie]

Hi AgProv, do you think that the students were running away because their teachers were gay, or because they the sudents themselves couldn't handle abstinence? I would assume it was the latter, but I don't remember it.

[LilMaibe]

(To blow my own trumpet, and why not, the status of gays on the Discworld is something I've worked on in my fanfic... it appears to have garnered largely positive reviews so far...)

Hey, I blow my own trumpet for my fanfics often enough. But you have the advantage of actually getting reviews *envy*

[LilMaibe]

I'm a bit worried now about the depiction of homosexuals in UA.
Quite a few people say it is brave and awesome to have characters like macarona and pepe in there, but I'm, as said, a bit worried now.
Just finished a documentary on homosexuality in society and a bit a homophobia sent me thinking.

Two stereotypes of homosexual men often use in homophobes' fearmongering are thus, accourding to the documentary:

1) A gay will stop at nothing to get his pleasure, not caring for anyone else than himself at it. This will, if not prevented, lead to the destruction of marriages.

2) Normal men having sex with a gay will lose their potence and will due to this enter a life full of anger, brutality and abuse of subtances in hope to forget what crime they commited.

I dearly, dearly hope that it was a accident, if fatal, that Macarona and Pepe are, well, those two stereotypes

[Tonyblack]

I'm a bit mystified why you're worried, Meeps. Do you know any homosexuals? The descriptions you've posted are not like any gays that I've ever known. And I don't think they apply to Bengo or Pepe.

I think there's a misunderstanding regarding Pepe being celibate and it may be from the passage that Pooh quoted below.

Page 386 Unseen Academicals Hard back.

Pepe: I've never seen such a large cheeseboard. It almost makes celibacy seem worthwhile.
Madame Sharn: Oh, do you think so?
Pepe: No. By the way, have you noticed that very tall wizard giving you the eye, my dear?
Madame Sharn: That's professor Bengo Macarona. (who is gay) Do you think he -
Pepe: Without a shadow of doubt, my dear. I know he's hurt his legs, but I doubt if that would be a problem.

Page 388

Pepe: I am an old bugger. I am a sod.

My reading of that is that Pepe is referring to the celibacy of wizards. We know from previous books that wizards are supposed to be celibate, in part to make sure they don't get a situation like in Sourcery where they have an eighth son or an eighth son of an eighth son.

The reason that Pepe (as far as I'm concerned) is so violent is that he grew up that way. He was a short kid growing up in a very violent area and needed to be tough.

As far as Bengo goes - I mentioned earlier that he's the Capt. Jack of Discworld. I don't think he's predatory, more that people admire him so much that they throw themselves at him.

[Dotsie]

Well, Bengo was named in a divorce petition, but let's face it, if a gay man is married to a woman, he's not going to want to stay faithful to her, is he? That's hardly the third party's fault, because the husband will be actively seeking a sexual partner. And unlike a heterosexual marriage, the man definitely won't be getting want he needs at home. So this stereotype is a little unfair - you can't turn a married man gay.

[poohcarrot]

Meeps, as you yourself said, it's "homophobes' fearmongering."

To put it mildly, it's total bigoted pants!

Edit: Actually I've just read it again.

Anyone who believes that kind of claptrap is more of a danger to society than anyone who is gay.

[LilMaibe]

I'm just a bit puzzled why it had to be those two. I know it was likely an accident, but it's a bit weird :/

[meerkat]

Why, Meeps?

There are gay men all over the world. It had to be someone. Why not a Wizard? Why not a Fashionista?
I am a straight girl (woman, ok ok,) but I know some men just like Pepe, and come to that, a Madam Sharn. They Are wild and in some cases, woolly , but once they get to know you, and they are quick to see through you, you get to see and hear the real them! And they are so very little different to anyone else.

Pepe is merely letting Andy just know that there are bigger fish than just him in the world. And personally I cheered that it took a gay man to get the better of Andy.

As for Bengo, why shouldn't he be a little different? He comes from a very cosmopolitan country where most things go and often tried ( ).
Perhaps he is a little too friendly with the Students but they come from Ankh Morpork where standing close together with a stranger can be the last day you see! It would make them uncomfortable.

Morporkians are a strange lot themselves!

I would just enjoy it that the gay fraternity is in Morpork. Just like anywhere else in the world.