I Shall Wear Midnight *Spoilers*

Moderators: Jason, Toothy, Tonyblack

Postby LilMaibe » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:37 am

Hello there.

The answer to the question about them wizards and their tendency to ensure chaos rather than help might lie in Pratchett's essay 'why Gandalf never married'. If I remember it correctly Pratchett back then pointed out how 'normally' it's always the male magic-users that save the day while the women always come second or third place if they aren't the bad guys.

Need to read the article again.
As for the Mary Sue bit. Generally I'm one of the first to point and yell that, though with Tiffany...might be because the book is still for younger readers. But still.... Haven't been able to read it yet myself (try finding the english origina where I live :? ) but haven't heard that many a good things...
LilMaibe
 

Postby Alrik Fassbauer » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:44 am

Thanks ! :)

Hm, I've never read this article ... But I recently read the book called "Brida" by a Paul Coelho, and he writes there of two "witch traditions" or so ... of men rather being the ones who preserve knowledge, and women doing the practical thins ... That's how I have it in my memory.

From that perspective, the Discworld mirrors that. There's only few exceptions of the rule.
Alrik Fassbauer
Member
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:07 am
Location: Germany

Postby raisindot » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:22 pm

I like the fact that in the DW the witches are far more effective in solving the 'big problems' than wizards.

I'm trying to think of one DW novel where any of the wizard faculty at UU actually solved the major plot threat. Rincewind is usually the one inadvertendly saves everything and that's always by accident.

Compare to the witches books, where the witches themselves defeat the villains through their "non-wizard" magic. The best example is Lords and Ladies, where Ridcully is completely impotent against stopping the Elf Queen's intrusions, which are resolved mainly by Granny's magic and Magrat's fists.
raisindot
Member
 
Posts: 3196
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA USA

Postby Alrik Fassbauer » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:23 pm

Hm, yes, you do have a point, imho.
Alrik Fassbauer
Member
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:07 am
Location: Germany

Postby Alrik Fassbauer » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:42 pm

Can someone please explain the word "shambles" to me ?

I've read the book in English language, and I believe I know what it is ... But it just isn't there in my English-language ditionaries ...

It's description often reminds me of a "dreamcatcher".
Alrik Fassbauer
Member
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:07 am
Location: Germany

Postby Dotsie » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:54 pm

If something is a shambles, it's a complete mess, which is probably a good description of anything made just from bits of rubbish in your pocket. But the item described by Terry is as far as I know, made up by him.

I imagine it as a less sophistcated version of a dreamcatcher - like a cat's cradle.
What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!
User avatar
Dotsie
Member
 
Posts: 9413
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:07 am

Postby Who's Wee Dug » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:53 pm

And it is also a street in York England.
for more info click the link.
www.britainexpress.com/cities/york/shambles.htmThe Shambles in York is a meandering, narrow medieval street, one of the most memorable attractions in this historic city.
He willnae tak' a drink! I think he's deid! , on the other hand though A Midgie in yir hand is worth twa up yir kilt.
User avatar
Who's Wee Dug
Member
 
Posts: 14723
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Stirlingshire, Scotland

Postby Tonyblack » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:56 pm

Yes, as Dotsie says and as this online definition concurs, it's a mess.
a. A scene or condition of complete disorder or ruin: "The economy was in a shambles" (W. Bruce Lincoln).
b. Great clutter or jumble; a total mess: made dinner and left the kitchen a shambles.


As far as I know, Terry has made up the idea of the dreamcatcher type thing for these books - he's not writing about anything that actually existed. :)
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28886
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Alrik Fassbauer » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:57 am

Thanks.

Yes, I already knew about "shambles" meaning "a mess" - and that street, too.

But I was rather referring to the word of this ... "device".

The description also reminded me of the so-called "string figures" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_figure
Alrik Fassbauer
Member
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:07 am
Location: Germany

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:31 am

Alrik Fassbauer wrote:Thanks.

Yes, I already knew about "shambles" meaning "a mess" - and that street, too.

But I was rather referring to the word of this ... "device".

The description also reminded me of the so-called "string figures" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_figure
Yes, a cat's cradle with added bits in it seems to be a good way to describe one. :D

It's quite interesting that two of the best witches that we know of - Tiffany and Granny Weatherwax are both not very good at using a shambles. Granny, it seems, doesn't even bother with them.
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28886
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Mary Skater » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:21 pm

Sorry for reviving an old thread, but I wasn't on the forum when the book was first discussed. I've read the previous posts, but I don't think anybody mentioned one bit that really bothered me. When Mr Petty hanged himself, what gave Tiffany the right to cut him down and revive him? He'd made his decision, he wanted to die. Why should she thwart him like that?

Given Terry's much-publicised views on people having the right to choose the time and manner of their death (something I agree with completely) I think what Tiffany did was pretty damned close to being a crime.

Mary
Mary Skater
New member
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:53 pm

Postby LilMaibe » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:50 pm

I haven't read ISWM yet, but it sounds as if Tiff broke an unwritten witche's law:
Do what's right, not what's good
LilMaibe
 

Postby DaveC » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:16 pm

I read it as Thee stopping him from taking the easy way out and facing up to what he had done. :?:
Adventures of a Film Geek - My Blog

Check out my short film!

"Dude, this thing claims I have mail. Dude, now I'm reading it."
This Is...
User avatar
DaveC
Member
 
Posts: 3796
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:35 am
Location: Portishead, UK

Postby LilMaibe » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:36 pm

Correct me if I#m wrong (as said, haven't read it yet) but from what I know he never has to face up to what he has done, but all the story provides is a 'happy ending' as he is now behaving like a picture-book husband.
LilMaibe
 

Postby swreader » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:16 am

I strongly recommend, LilMaibe, that you stop commenting on works you have not yet read. And have you read the rest of the Tiffany series yet? You really must read all of them in order before you can begin to understand what Terry is saying in I Shall Wear Midnight. This will save you from making the rather stupid misstatements you seem to be prone to.

Tiffany forces Mr. Petty to face the truth of what he has done when she lets him feel his daughter's pain. And she sends him off not because she thinks he particularly deserves to live, but because she knows the rough music is coming. She does not want the good people of the village to commit a murder.

When she returns after taking Amber to Jenny, she finds that he has returned after the rough music left, placed a bouquet of nettles around the dead baby, and then tried to hang himself. It is this sign of repentance that causes her to ask Rob to cut him down.

Tiffany acts as a witch should--doing what is necessary and right. That is not the same thing as doing what other people may think is good.
User avatar
swreader
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:39 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.

PreviousNext

Return to Discworld novels

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests