Hey Terry Why Are You Looking At Dying

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Postby Marianne » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:46 pm

Please stay on topic. This is just too big an issue. thanks.
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Postby LilMaibe » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:47 pm

Marianne wrote:Please stay on topic. This is just too big an issue. thanks.


We know how big an issue it is. But we're not going to let things drag us down by acting overly serious.

(this sounds odd, I know)
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Postby deldaisy » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:50 pm

LilMaibe wrote:
Marianne wrote:Please stay on topic. This is just too big an issue. thanks.


We know how big an issue it is. But we're not going to let things drag us down by acting overly serious.

(this sounds odd, I know)


On topic? ON topic? I would be extremely worried if one of our threads stayed on topic for more than two pages :D

....oh look.... shiney things......
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Postby DaveC » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:51 pm

:D

Where the thread goes nobody konws.... :roll: :D
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:51 pm

Oh I can't be bothered to log out and in again for you :roll: It means both of course. :lol:

Every day I make a decision to get out of bed, get dressed and have breakfast - this is my standard definition of how bad my mental state is at any given time and I call it my 'do one thing I don't want to do today and then I can do whatever I like after that' option. Some days getting out of bed is the one thing I do that I don't want to do. I made a rule that's completely bogus to prove to myself I have free will - it doesn't matter one way or the other whether I stay in bed or not because I don't work and have no reason to get up for anything at all should I choose. That's not living though is it? What I'm actually doing, every day, is making myself choose to live just a little bit and some days, most days even I do more than get up of my pit and do something valid, even though I don't have to do anything at all. One day I might not get up at all and just turn over and go back to sleep. I'll still wake up later on, or the next day and have to make the decision again. I don't need a poison to keep on making a decision to get up and live, so in the end I'd die of starvation or something because I was suicidal - without doing anything but refuse to get up.

It's just a choice and yes you did say that Jesus chose to die but the reason is the important thing and in the end the only issue. Death is death and the end. We're all dying from our first breath, but we all die for a reason, most of us because we're just too old or too ill. What's offensive to some people, whether or not religion or belief comes into it, is people making choices for the wrong reasons or too early and this is therefore about the personal right to choose and how that has to be defined by law so that other people cannot influence your choice improperly. Freedom is an illusion, responsibility is a fact.
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Postby deldaisy » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:01 pm

Funny you should mention that Jan. Went to the psych tonight. He showed me a GRAPH! It showed me blubbering (Waily! Waily! as Tina says) and then a sharp and sudden DIP when I was FORCED to make my daughters burlesque costumes (previous to this I was hiding under the doona in the dark getting up to feed my child and do the bare miinimum to keep her alive and off to school, kid stuff etc).

NOW... NOW!!! I have to set "goals" ohhhhh yeah. I have just spent a week having the flesh ripped from my bones (house guest) in the number of things I HAD to do just to be socially polite and acceptable with said house guest. Normally I would have been up with the larks and dragging him out. So the day after he departed I crawled back under the doona. I DESERVED IT!

Now (my little goal list) is to schedule something amazingly wonderful for every day. Today I was dressed beautifully to go to psych.... but I wore my fluffy slippers :D ...... Hey! At least I didn't turn up in my cuddly dressing gown.

NO amount of argueing would convince him that hiding under the doona IS something amazingly wonderful as a goal for the day :( Bugger!
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Postby poohcarrot » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:10 pm

What is offensive is having somebody else make the choice for you because of their beliefs, be it assisted suicide, abortion, or your country being dragged into avoidable wars. :twisted:

And Marianne, Terry Pratchett writes about serious stuff. But he also is a very funny writer. To keep on topic and talk about only the serious stuff would be doing him a dis-service. It's not what he'd want. :P

And it's pretty clear from all the posts that everyone is in agreement that assisted suicide should be made legal in the UK. Nobody's arguing against it. :D
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:24 pm

deldaisy wrote:NO amount of argueing would convince him that hiding under the doona IS something amazingly wonderful as a goal for the day :( Bugger!

:lol: I bet he's not an insomniac either - I take it 'he' is the psych and not the oil rigger :wink: I love my bed and I crave sleep having endured nearly 20 years of disrupted and insufficient amounts as a result of simply sharing a bed with somebody else.

Up until 6 years ago I was in denial and would say that bed was my favourite place and only nice things happened in it (without going into any detail this didn't include the connubial aspects of bed for a goodly proportion of that period :roll: ) - realising that actually sharing a bed in the same room even was in fact very bad for me played a big part in getting me sane and functional-ish again, so even though my sleep patterns are still completley pants a solo bed and bedroom is once again a sanctuary for me, but also in some respects a prison or sorts. It's now solely on my own terms though and that's why it's more sanctuary than incarceration - I quite enjoy my own company and a fantasy life uninterrupted by loud snoring or CPAPP machines :wink:

Marianne - sorry if you think we're messing about unduly in here but this is something unique to this forum in that we don't allow ourselves to be governed by the topic necessarily and will go off on tangents that might seem nothing to do with what's at the top of the thread, but does have a skewed logic to it in that it's these little diversions that add to the experience and often 'lighten it up' so we can skirt around things and come back to the central theme from a different and sometimes more illuminating perspective. It usually works out OK but Tony'll get the green Mods pen out if we take too many liberties. :D Don't worry about it too much in other words, just enjoy the journey and come back in when you feel so disposed :wink:
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Postby deldaisy » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:45 pm

I hear you Jan! When I had my first baby she was a night owl. I asked my mother... "Shouldn't babies sort of sleep around 7?" She said to me... "Darling YOU were number 11 and I suddenly had a baby that would rather stay up until midnight and talk to the curtain or the reflection in the moon til she was tired.... live with it. You are both night owls... enjoy it!" :D

I have always been a night owl..... NOW I am an insomniac... there is a HUGE difference.

Yeah GETTING sleep is no: 1 priority now. I informed the psych that not getting sleep for three days while still having to do stuff on alternate days MEANT getting sleep when it came... so the aim is to get to sleep when I used to get to sleep. But that involves reading again... as I always read before I sleep and I have had problems reading :shock: :shock: Concentrating. Hence my rereading of Witches Abroad lately.

As towards "distractions" in the bedroom...... hmmmmmmmm. Yeah. Okay. Oh yeah I get that one too. Nice visit by the oil rigger :D but ummmmm lets see..... that or a night without someone snoring for the other glorious hours I wish to float off to la-la land in deep and sumptuious slumber? Hmmmmmmm. Nope!

Is it socially acceptable do you think to ask man home on the first date to SLEEP? "Look Honey! You are a dish, totally fascinating, intelligent and I am highly attracted to you, and I daresay we could embark on a wild encounter of nocturnal (and dare I say daytime) encounters..... but if we are going to consider seeing each other for more than a week (the maximum amount of time I can physically go with seriously reduced sleep) or heaven forfend a LONG TERM relationship.... I need to know if you snore! Because if you DO snore then I think we should just pay the cheque right now and go our seperate ways."

Some might say I'm being picky..... but sleep is kind of important.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:15 pm

Sleep is the little death... :roll: But ordinary sleep's about renewal too of course, something that isn't an option for assisted death - you know that's a patronising bloody term too! :evil: Call a spade a bloody shovel or put a pink ribbon around the handle and wear black velvet gloves to use it and it'll still dig a grave for you. :x

Mercy killing - a deliberate act done as an expression of charity or however you want to put it. How's that for grasping the nettle? Someone dies as a result of a kindness done for them because they're too far gone to keep on living - nothing wrong with that is there? It's done every day in virtually any hospital in any country and sometimes for less reason than because the person wants it to happen sooner rather than later. It happens already and sometimes, rarely one hopes, it happens for the wrong reasons and it's this that scares people aside from the wrath of god aspect.

On the Newsnight debate there was a bishop as well as a disabled lady on the ante lobby side of the table and even he agreed that it has to the individual's choice in the end and if it's made legal then, although he still couldn't condone it on spiritual and moral grounds, it was a valid option open to people to take provided they were certain that was what they wanted and were in a position still to make that rational choice. His actual objection to the Dignitas option being made available in this country at present is because he fears that the weak and the vulnerable might not be sufficiently protected and, rightly, that there would be ways around the legalities of consent for mercy killing for the sufficiently motivated for other non-altruistic reasons.

What if it's an option for people who are chronically ill and in dire physical shape, who aren't being cared for by people they love? They might get pressured into saying they wanted to die for what might appear to be sound quality of life reasons, even though they'd not want that unless they were being bullied or mistreated in some way. It's that situation that's the reason we haven't got this law in place already. It may not be a good enough reason not to have assisted death (there you go I've caved in already because it sounds so much 'nicer' :roll: ) with the proper legislation put in that will make this 'foul play' scruple/quibble recede and not be covered under the otherwise needful decriminalisation of helping someone who wants to die do so, as opposed to manipulating them into death or thinking they want it. There have to be sufficient safeguards in place to stop that likelihood of truly criminal abuse, irrespective of hysterical spiritual qualms.

I'm for this concept wholeheartedly and would opt for it myself without hesitation when life ceases to have any good meaning for me, or is too painful (in whatever manner that is) for me to carry on deciding to get out of bed every single day. However, the nay-sayers do have a point in those respects which may be tricked out in Holy Joe speak, but can't be ignored because this is death we're talking about and the living have a duty to help desparately sick people stay alive too. Perhaps it's more a question of defaults that's the sticking point and what assisted death presents is too much of a change to be regarded as an automatic right if you decide that's it without too much thought one day after your lover's walked out, the dog's bitten your bum and your lumbago's playing you up something chronic because the winds coming from the north-west... :lol: That's what people aren't happy about really - that they'll be commiting to something that will become unstoppable and maybe even become the norm where its assumed that's the route everyone will want. The little niggle that says - what if there's a miracle? Maybe they'll find a cure the day after I go? What if he/she comes back to me? What if I just change my mind and I can't tell anyone not to do it? What if nobody listens to me or say it's too late for me to back out? It's a human choice so there have to guidelines and clear safeguards for everyone, but especially for the weak and the friendless.
Last edited by Jan Van Quirm on Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby archerinwood » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:24 pm

I am doing a project in RE on euthanasia.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:34 pm

That's good archer - great timing too! :) If you were thinking of it, just try not to quote Rijinswand too much 'cos he was talking a load of old bull for the sake of keeping pooh amused (R's a 'spare' profile of mine :oops: ) :wink:
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Postby Steffi » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:05 pm

Hello Terry,

I do not know if you ever read sites like this, but if you do: I sincerely hope that when you will make a final decision about your life and your death, you will be able to do it when, where and with whom you want to. Right to self-determination should also be the right to well informed self-termination. It is all about choice and I hope you will be around long enough to have that choice legally, wether you make that choice or not. As long as you have that choice. Thank you for your brave and very personal documentary. I also appreciate the braveness of the people who, in one of the most private moments of a life, allowed you to film. Good luck with your battles.

love,

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Postby The Mad Collector » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:48 pm

After talking to Rob this afternoon about the programme I know that he hadn't realised how much his reactions in the programme had been picked up by the rest of us. He seemed genuinely surprised by how much his obvious discomfort by the experience had been noticed, to the extent that one of the newspapers here have highlighted him as one of the significant balancing viewpoints to Terry's. It's a difficult subject and he is obviously far less down the road than Terry is and it was interesting to chat about it with him.

Personally I don't think he is happy but respects Terry's decisions whatever they may be.
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Postby Wallace » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:43 pm

The Mad Collector wrote:After talking to Rob this afternoon about the programme I know that he hadn't realised how much his reactions in the programme had been picked up by the rest of us.


I felt Rob was featured specifically for his reaction within the programme, having been a carer myself in the past I found myself seeing Rob's feelings along with each point put forward by Terry, Peter and his wife Christine.

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