The Caroc Cards - The Temple of the Lady @ DWCon 2012

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The Caroc Cards - The Temple of the Lady @ DWCon 2012

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:49 pm

IMPORTANT: For this deck, nuance and concept take precedence over characterisation considerations and so we're not necessarily looking to cast major or serial characters or even 'people' - it could be temples, guilds/organisations, places or objects, so think laterally! :wink:

Separate thread for this one I think as it's nothing to do with Cripple Mr. Onion (that's just the lesser cards). However, we still need character and landscape art for this and artistically this is possibly a more satisfying and interesting aspect of the project as Caroc cards, like Roundworld Tarot rely heavily on symbolism, so theming is very important for this side of things. :wink:

Because of that and also as we want to actually do some card readings at the convention, Meerkat's been looking at this with me from the psychic and aetherical perspective so that we get the right nuance for the cards in relation to the tarot (we can't do it for real as this world's just the wrong damn shape!) so that we can tie in the various categories with Discworld whilst keeping to the meaning of the tarot equivalent - this is not quite so easy as it appears... :twisted:

In the real Caroc there are 30 cards altogether but Terry's only got around to actually naming a few of them and most can equate (roughly in some cases) to the 22 Roundworld cards so this is what we've come up with - the Discworld name is shown in brackets where appropriate :P

Later suggestions/options in red until meerkat sanctions 8)

1 ~ The Magician
Mankind surrounded by nature. Endowed with enough power to manage your affairs.
Probably one of the UU Wizards but one who fits the description (Ponder? Ridcully?)
Have you considered Albert? He's good as the founder of UU and v. powerful in his own right - OK! :wink: Females are possible but it's the 'management' side of magic that seems to preclude witching as a discipline in that they use magic incidentally/intuitively more and not as a matter of course as would wizards?

2 ~ The High Priestess
Sanctuary, law, woman, Mother.
Mrs. Cosmopolite in her position as Muse/Sibyl to Lu-Tze and the History Monks. Could also work Anoia into this too as she's sort of a domestic goddess
Nanny Ogg has many of these qualities.
Sibyl (Vimes) has been suggested but rejected on basis that some astral ability is inherent in this function :wink:

3 ~ The Empress
Evolutionary power of fertilised nature.
Lady Margolotta (on the basis of international political clout)Magrat, since she's pretty darned earth morther fertile. And she's queen.


4 ~ The Ruler (The Emperor)
The Energy in man to give his creations a short reality.
Because of that qualification - Terry The Man (Vetinari is still in here just wait a bit :twisted: )
Wm. De Worde?

5 ~ The High Priest
Spiritual Power which conveys principles.
Hughnon Ridcully (HP of Blind Io)? OR Brutha? Or the Abbot of the History Monks (not Lu Tze as he is not in a position of heading the order ever)

6 ~ The Lovers
Physical love. Urge to carry out a task with the advantages you take from it.
Carrot and Angua? LONAs?
Cohen & Bethany? Wen & Lady Time? Susan & Jeremy/Lobsang; Sam and Sybil? Wintersmith & lady Summer?

7 ~ The Chariot
Material Power. Dominion over passions. Actions of a human being.
The Luggage on the basis (and basics) of carrying material trappings and in particular laundry action... 8)
Binky?

8 ~ Justice
Happy or painful consequences.
Lord Vetinari - just right! :D
Sam Vimes. He is justice personnified. Even Vetinari must bow to him when it concerns The Law. They are both servants of the Law and Sam certainly upholds it without fear or favour. However as Patrician Vetinari can make or repeal laws (even if he's also subject to them like when he's removed from office in Jingo). Sam can't do that, so I say he's still 2nd choice. :wink:


9 ~ The Hermit
Search of Truth. Search for patience. Prudence.
Lu-tze

10 ~ The Wheel of Fortune
Actions in the present affected by the past.
Guild of Gamblers - maybe tie in Fate & the Lady? Moist?
This is Moist all over. He's all about actions in the present being affected by his past. (included on the basis that I loathe Moist so can't be a judge :wink: )
CMOT - admittedly, it's usually bad fortune in his case, but his actions are affected by the past.


11 ~ The Importance of Washing the Hands (Strength)
Fruits of labour. Ability to tell truth from lies.
Cohen or Hrun cleaning up... from a Health & Efficiency slant - strength through hygiene :PCarrot is he wasn't being used elsewhere. Or Detritus, since he strongly committed to cleaning the city of troll drugs. They don't have to be major characters and anyway Cohen isn't as he's in 3 books. We did think of having a Troll but thought the discernment factor was more pertinent (like oiled muscles flexing admittedly) :P
How about the Nac MacFeegle, or the Librarian? I like the Librarian for this :)

12 ~ The Hanged Man
Halt or Suspension. Abandonment/Unshared love.
The gallows dummy in AM (FoC)? I'd say Nutt? Giving a card to a inanimate object? Silly! OVERRULED - NP with objects if the significance fits. :twisted:
Moist - both literally and metaphorically.

13 ~ Death
New Start/New beginnings, even new life. Cut with the past.
Who'd you think? :roll:

14 ~ Temperance
Adapting to new experience. Reconciliation in business.
Black Ribbon and bats Maladicta? CMOT (entrepreneurial skills - trend-jumping)?
The Librarian, he definitely adapted to new experiences

15 ~ The Devil
Slavery/selfish outlook. Licentiousness/ Robberies.
Overall we think The Auditors as a collective entity that hates life :evil: Teatime? Pin and Tulip? Carcer?

16 ~ The Tower
Danger/Setbacks/Unexpected blow. Freeing from prison/risk of serious illness.
Tower of Art - with or without the Draco Nobilis :wink:

17 ~ Pool of the Night (The Star)
Dawning of peace hope and prosperity/beauty. Cosmic Harmonies.
Red Star from LF in night sky - reflected in a body of water. Lobsang & Jeremy (ToT)?

18 ~ The Moon
Illusion/mirage/ a complicated life
Elves in moon's light - possibly riding yarrow stalks (whatever they are... (L&L) :roll: )Lily Weatherwax?
(Susan and Granny are both opponents of illusion and fight it whenever they encounter it (exposing the bogeymen and intolerance of play-acting 8) )

19 ~ Dome of the Sky (The Sun)
Sincere affection. Noble sentiments.
:? Hard one to discify this. Possibly Druids flying sarsen stones to Llamedos across a sunny sky OR use Egyptian style Nut-type Goddess from Pyramids (pooh'll like that :P )
Possibly Tiffany or Granny Aching? Not sure about them - is kind of a fit but they're more fixed to the Land?

20 ~ Judgement
A good card, predicting library work. Stability in business. Health.
AM Watch badge :wink:
The Librarian?

21 ~ The Dysk (World)
Feminine card.
If a man it’s his thoughts, if a woman it’s her personality. Perfection, Inspiration. Good health.
Great A'tuin, ellies and disc 8)

22 ~ The Fool
In-determination, wrong advice, thoughtlessness, abandonment of material things. Incompetence.
Rincewind - who else? :D
Clodpool? (ToT)

So artists - volunteers, please post your interest by picking a number and then discuss your subject in here if you need more info or explanations :D
Last edited by Jan Van Quirm on Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:05 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Postby LilMaibe » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:00 pm

If I may suggest something else for the Hanged Man:

Maybe Rincewind, dangling from a tree or something, looking pretty miffed at how he got into such a situation AGAIN and contemplating how to get out. In relation to the card: He is kept from his beloved boredom by getting thrown into adventures
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:13 pm

We put Rinso as the Fool LM rather the Hanged Man - I think that scenario's good for that role too and with less of a value judgement involved as the Fool can be quite a powerful and positive card whereas the Hanged Man has a sense of 'wrongness' attached to it however it's positioned. After all, however crap he is, a wizard's an honourable occupation on Discworld :wink:
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Postby Bickaxe » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:43 pm

Coughsplutterofficialcardsmightbecomingsooncoughsplutter
Fiendish til the en-
:twisted:
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Postby The Mad Collector » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:50 pm

Wouldn't Verence be a more appropriate fool? I would have Rincewind with the Octavo on the same card as the red star from Light Fantastic. Similar to the graphic novel treatment.

The dome of the sky was covered in Pyramids and that would be a good basis for this card.

As for the lovers I don't think Carrot and Angua work here. Carrot loves the city and Angua loves Carrot but I don't think of them for physical love. I would suggest Mrs Palm and a couple of her ladies which also covers the urge to carry out a task with the advantages you take from it :)
One of those? Oh I'm sure I have one somewhere..

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Postby The Mad Collector » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:51 pm

Bickaxe wrote:Coughsplutterofficialcardsmightbecomingsooncoughsplutter


OK what is Bernard up to? You can tell us, we won't tell anyone else :wink:
One of those? Oh I'm sure I have one somewhere..

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:52 pm

Bickaxe wrote:Coughsplutterofficialcardsmightbecomingsooncoughsplutter

Bugger! :lol: Seriously that's great if we have a commercial Major Arcana available to do readings with but we can still have fun with it as a fan project too :wink:

MAD wrote:Wouldn't Verence be a more appropriate fool? I would have Rincewind with the Octavo on the same card as the red star from Light Fantastic. Similar to the graphic novel treatment.

The dome of the sky was covered in Pyramids and that would be a good basis for this card.

As for the lovers I don't think Carrot and Angua work here. Carrot loves the city and Angua loves Carrot but I don't think of them for physical love. I would suggest Mrs Palm and a couple of her ladies which also covers the urge to carry out a task with the advantages you take from it :)

Ah - I was trying to think where Dome of the Sky came into it besides LF so that's another option and we can certainly forget the Kite in that case :D

I'm going to have to get meerkat in here to answer some of those because it has to have meaning to the person doing the reading, but I think Verence isn't a candidate for the Fool because it's more about foolishnes and folly than jester-type stuff whether or not it's the sad clown sort of fooling. I know what you mean about the LONAs and they would make a good original illustration as we're going to using Carrot and Angua anyway for the Watch set already (clubs), :lol: but again this might be too literal an interpretation.

See what our expert has to say on it :)

Have annotated the head post with that so we can refer back :wink:
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Postby Sjoerd3000 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:56 pm

How about Moist for 10 The Wheel of Fortune?
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:02 pm

Sounds OK to me - putting these suggestions in the top post in red now until M can get in to comment/ratify :wink:
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Re: The Caroc Cards - The Temple of the Lady @ DWCon 2012

Postby raisindot » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:54 pm

Since you're clearly not soliciting unsolicited advice, I'm going to give you my thoughts on these which you can take with a grain of NaCl.


Jan Van Quirm wrote:1 ~ The Magician
Mankind surrounded by nature. Endowed with enough power to manage your affairs.
Probably one of the UU Wizards but one who fits the description (Ponder? Ridcully?)
I vote for Ridcully
Who else could it be?


2 ~ The High Priestess
Sanctuary, law, woman, Mother.
Mrs. Cosmopolite in her position as Muse/Sibyl to Lu-Tze and the History Monks. Could also work Anoia into this too as she's sort of a domestic goddess
I dunno..those are minor characters. Nanny Ogg has many of these qualities.



3 ~ The Empress
Evolutionary power of fertilised nature.
Lady Margolotta (on the basis of international political clout)
Too minor a character. I'd say Magrat, since she's pretty darned earth morther fertile. And she's queen.



4 ~ The Emperor (The Ruler)
The Energy in man to give his creations a short reality.
Because of that qualification - Terry The Man (Vetinari is still in here just wait a bit :twisted: )
I dunno...by your description I might suggest Wm. De Worde. After all, most of his stories have a short shelf life.



5 ~ The High Priest
Spiritual Power which conveys principles.
Brutha. Who else? The famous lasting religious figure




6 ~ The Lovers
Physical love. Urge to carry out a task with the advantages you take from it.
Carrot and Angua? LONAs?
Definitely. Good pick, although it does take them out of consideration as single characters.



7 ~ The Chariot
Material Power. Dominion over passions. Actions of a human being.
The Luggage on the basis (and basics) of carrying material trappings and in particular laundry action... 8)
Hmmm....that's a toughie.

8 ~ Justice
Happy or painful consequences.
Lord Vetinari - just right! :D
Wrong. Sam Vimes. He is justice personnified. Even Vetinari must bow to him when it concerns The Law.



9 ~ The Hermit
Search of Truth. Search for patience. Prudence.
Lu-tze
Good 'un.

10 ~ The Wheel of Fortune
Actions in the present affected by the past.
Guild of Gamblers - maybe tie in Fate & the Lady? Moist?
You're being too literal. This is Moist all over. He's all about actions in the present being affected by his past.



11 ~ Strength (The Importance of Washing the Hands)
Fruits of labour. Ability to tell truth from lies.
Cohen or Hrun cleaning up... from a Health & Efficiency slant - strength through hygiene :P
Minor characters. This is a tough one. I'd say Carrot is he wasn't being used elsewhere. Or Detritus, since he strongly committed to cleaning the city of troll drugs.



12 ~ The Hanged Man
Halt or Suspension. Abandonment/Unshared love.
The gallows dummy in AM (FoC)
Giving a card to a inanimate object? Silly! I'd say Nutt.



13 ~ Death
New Start/New beginnings, even new life. Cut with the past.
Who'd you think? :roll:

14 ~ Temperance
Adapting to new experience. Reconciliation in business.
Black Ribbon and bats
More objects. How about CMOT Dibbler? True, not a protagonist, but a staple of the series. And one who is always adapting to new opportunities.




15 ~ The Devil
Slavery/selfish outlook. Licentiousness/ Robberies.
Overall we think The Auditors as a collective entity that hates life :evil:
That suggests the auditors are evil. They aren't, since they don't have moral values. Tough call here, since Pterry doesn't have repeat villains. Maybe either Teatime or a combination of Pin and Tulip? or even Wolfgang, although he is a one-book villain.



16 ~ The Tower
Danger/Setbacks/Unexpected blow. Freeing from prison/risk of serious illness.
Tower of Art - with or without the Draco Nobilis :wink:
Dorfl maybe? He's a tower of strength with an unexpected blow who freed himself from the prison of his own mind. Yeah, pretty weak.



17 ~ The Star (Pool of the Night)
Dawning of peace hope and prosperity/beauty. Cosmic Harmonies.
Red Star from LF in night sky - reflected in a body of water
How about wosshername, the heroine from Monstrous Regiment? She's creating beauty out of ugliness. Or Lobsang.



18 ~ The Moon
Illusion/mirage/ a complicated life
Elves in moon's light - possibly riding yarrow stalks (whatever they are... (L&L) :roll: )
Tough one...Granny or Susan comes to mind here. Whose life is more complicated than theirs? Or, if you wanted a shot character, Lillith Weatherwax.





19 ~ The Sun (Dome of the Sky)
Sincere affection. Noble sentiments.
:? Hard one to discify this. Possibly Druids flying sarsen stones to Llamedos across a sunny sky OR use Egyptian style Nut-type Goddess from Pyramids (pooh'll like that :P )
This would be Carrot all over, if he wasn't one of The Lovers.


20 ~ Judgement
A good card, predicting library work. Stability in business. Health.
AM Watch badge :wink:
Yeah, probably good. Although I also like Granny here as well, since she's very healthy and judgemental.

21 ~ The World
Feminine card.
If a man it’s his thoughts, if a woman it’s her personality. Perfection, Inspiration. Good health.
Great A'tuin, ellies and disc 8)
Yes, makes sense!

22 ~ The Fool
In-determination, wrong advice, thoughtlessness, abandonment of material things. Incompetence.
Rincewind - who else? :D
Yeah. He's gotta go somewhere.

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:00 pm

Some good suggestions/alternatives there Jeff but meerkat will still have the final say as she's the one doing the card interpretation and the symbology has to come first for her to 'work' the cards effectively - this doesn't mean she won't have second thoughts or even 3rd or 4th ones so NP with making comments on the initial choices. :D

Just so it's absolutely clear (and I know you didn't mean it that way :wink: ) the list as posted has to be prescriptive and meaningful in the psychic plane more than the visual or literal sense and that's why we're not doing a poll for this (like we did for the regular suits) as the theming has to be much tighter for the reading to be as valid as they can be whether or not you treat tarot seriously. It's not something (as we see with the Lovers) that can be taken at face value necessarily, so this is why meerkat (and anyone else with the 'gift' if you want to come in and feedback) has to have the last word on things on whether we have characters or things or places for certain cards.

Also with the most important characters they're already featuring as Aces or courts cards for the 8 regular suits so the Caroc was always going to be more obscure by definition as it's not really about specifics but characteristics and stereoptypes can come into it so we can still use background serial characters rather than the 'one off' ones who may or may not be prominent in the storyline. For instance I can't think how you can make Polly Perks or anyone else in MR as 'creating beauty out of ugliness' for the Pool of Night but on the other hand I can see Maladicta's little coffee problem as being highly suitable for Temperance :lol: so thanks for that one Jeff even if it didn't pan out quite the way you thought! :wink:

PS - hopeless at acronyms - what's NaCI? :oops:
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:22 pm

Probably the chemical symbol for salt or sand or something. :D
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:29 pm

That'd have an S in it as well I think - Sodium Chloride? :lol:
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Postby Tonyblack » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:32 pm

NaCl is most definitely common salt. :D

Na is the chemical symbol for Sodium.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:35 pm

Thanks for clearing that up Tony - I always hated Chemistry :P
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