Unseen Academicals - Revelation!

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Postby meerkat » Fri May 27, 2011 6:27 pm

I think he batted for both teams!
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Postby Tonyblack » Fri May 27, 2011 6:54 pm

Ogg wrote:Interesting reading I must say. I've just reread UU and imo Bengo Macarona was portrayed as very much a ladies man.
He's the Captain Jack Harkness of the Discworld. :wink:
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Postby meerkat » Fri May 27, 2011 6:58 pm

:lol:
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Postby One Man Bucket » Fri May 27, 2011 8:49 pm

raisindot wrote:The entrepreneurial dwarfs in AM don't consider themselves to be owners of "mines'; they recognize that their businesses aren't mines at all. Since the idea of living underground and working in a mine is so engrained in the history and traditions of the dwarfs the AM dwarfs often feel that they're not real dwarfs, which is why they often fall under the sway of reactionary "deep downers" who expouse a return to the "old ways." No self-respecting dwarf would every try to claim that his business is a "mine."


Sharn referred to Shatta as a mine and in the Folklore of the Discworld it's stated that all dwarf businesses are mines. I'm hardly pulling this stuff out of thin air.

And there's nothing in any of the books that says that all every owner of a mine is a king or that each has grags. There's only one king of the dwarfs; the low king. The king himself does not have to be a grag; it's quite clear at the end of Thud! that Rhys is not a grag because he lets the two opposing grags resolve the Koom Valley issue, both verbally and physically.


Carrot's adoptive father is referred to as king and Sharn referred to herself as King adjusting it to Queen. I didn't say the king has to be a grag I said it's a possibility. Grags seem more than rich enough to own multiple mines.

Rhys isn't a grag but he is a deepdowner and the Low King is the final court of appeal where grags are basically the arbiters of dwarf law in whatever community they happen to be in. It seems to me that whether he's a grag or not the Low King performs some very grag like functions
"Give us only everything, and we will be content." ~ Jerome K Jerome
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Postby Ogg » Fri May 27, 2011 8:56 pm

Dotsie wrote:Apart from being gay, you mean?
A genuine lol :) Am I that wrong? I didn't think that he was gay at all! I'm rereading the Johnny Maxwell trilogy right now bit I'll going back in (ooer) asap.

Tonyblack wrote:
Ogg wrote:Interesting reading I must say. I've just reread UU and imo Bengo Macarona was portrayed as very much a ladies man.
He's the Captain Jack Harkness of the Discworld. :wink:


Googles 'Captain Jack Harkness', ah Doctor Who and stuff :)
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Postby The Mad Collector » Sat May 28, 2011 6:31 am

Ogg wrote:
Dotsie wrote:Apart from being gay, you mean?
A genuine lol :) Am I that wrong? I didn't think that he was gay at all! I'm rereading the Johnny Maxwell trilogy right now bit I'll going back in (ooer) asap.

Tonyblack wrote:
Ogg wrote:Interesting reading I must say. I've just reread UU and imo Bengo Macarona was portrayed as very much a ladies man.
He's the Captain Jack Harkness of the Discworld. :wink:


The first time Bengo Macarona is mentioned.

‘Oh, that’s Professor Bengo Macarona, Archchancellor. From Genua, remember? He’s swapped with Professor Maidenhair for a year.’
‘Oh, right. Poor old Maidenhair. Perhaps he won’t get laughed at so much in a foreign language. And Mister Macarona’s here to better himself, yes? Put a bit of polish on his career, no doubt.’
‘Hardly, sir. He’s got doctorates from Unki, QIS and Chubb, thirteen in all, and a visiting professorship at Bugarup, and he has been cited in two hundred and thirty-six papers and, er, one divorce petition.’
‘What?’
‘The rule about celibacy isn’t taken seriously over there, sir. Very hot-blooded people, I understand, of course. His family owns a huge ranch and the biggest coffee plantation outside Klatch, and I think his grandmother owns the Macarona Shipping Company.’
‘So why the hell did he come here?’
‘He wants to work with the best, sir,’ said Ponder. ‘I think he’s serious.’
‘Really? Oh, well, he seems like a sensible chap, then. Er, the divorce thing?’
‘Don’t know much, sir, it got hushed up, I believe.’
‘Angry husband?’
‘Angry wife, as I heard it,’ said Ponder.
‘Oh, he was married, was he?’
‘Not to my knowledge, Archchancellor.’
‘I don’t think I quite understand,’ said Ridcully.
Ponder, who was not at all at home in this area, said very slowly, ‘She was the wife of another man… I, er, believe, sir.’
‘But I—’
To Ponder’s relief, light dawned on Ridcully’s huge face. ‘Oh, you mean he was like Professor Hayden. We used to have a name for him… ’
Ponder braced himself.
‘Snakes. Very keen on them, you know. Could talk for hours about snakes with a side order of lizards. Very keen.’
‘I’m glad you feel like that, Archchancellor, because I know that a number of the students—’
‘And then there was old Postule, who was in the rowing team. Coxed us through two wonderful years.’ Ponder’s expression did not change, but for a few moments his face went pink and shiny. ‘A lot of that sort of thing about, apparently,’ said Ridcully. ‘People make such a fuss. Anyway, in my opinion there’s not enough love in the world. Besides, if you didn’t like the company of men you wouldn’t come here in the first place.
One of those? Oh I'm sure I have one somewhere..

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Postby Tonyblack » Sat May 28, 2011 7:29 am

By the way - Dave Hayden is a member of the Cunning Artificer's site and is who Prof. Hayden is based on. He does indeed give talks on snakes and lizards. Terry contacted Dave while he was writing UA and asked his permission to use him in the book. Dave and his partner, Chris got married recently. :D
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Postby rockershovel » Sat May 28, 2011 11:14 am

raisindot wrote:
rockershovel wrote:
However Nanny Ogg's putative dwarf ancestry


??? Where did you get this from? Her family line goes back hundreds, maybe thousands, of years but there's no dwarf ancestry in it.


it's certainly mentioned in Wikipedia. I definitely remember it as a throw-away line in one of the Witches books, although I don 't recall quite where. I think it's in Witches Abroad, and is related to the incident where she has a farmhouse dropped on her head.

She appears to have been notably promiscuous as a younger woman, and shows no aversion to a flirtation with Casanunda, so although she appears to be descended from long-establushed Ramtops stock ( cf 'Oggham' in Lords and Ladies ) it's probably a fair bet that her ancestry might be found to contain pretty much anything and everything necessary for a good joke or plotline..
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Postby rockershovel » Sat May 28, 2011 11:19 am

I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the exact word used to transliterate the term for the leader of a specific dwarf grouping or clan into another language.

I'm sure that Carrot provides the comment about 'King' meaning 'Chief Engineer' on the basis that you don't stay either for long if the roof falls in on your subjects/workforce/relatives.

I'd say the dwarfs are specifically Jewish-based because of their emphasis on the power of words per se, and their concept that dwarfishness is transmitted and not a matter of theology. Islam is is most definitely religious, and dwarfs ( by their account ) have no religion as such.


I don't see how anyone would become Low King without being a grag first.
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Postby One Man Bucket » Sat May 28, 2011 1:52 pm

I'd be willing to accept that Carrot isn't the best at translating from dwarfish to Morporkian but I fail to see why Sharn would then make the same translation errors as he did.

I'm sticking with my belief that every leader of a suitably sized dwarf enterprise can use the title of king but for clarity's sake I'll say the type of king they are is vastly different from the type of king the Low King is.
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Postby rockershovel » Sat May 28, 2011 4:46 pm

essentially, yes. Carrot was talking in the context of a literal mine, and underground excavation. In Madame's case the term might be rendered as 'Managing Director' and it would mean the same thing - the individual most trusted to oversee the enterprise, due to their decision making abilities and overall knowledge of the business in hand.

It's also clear from 5th Elephant that Rhys is regarded as a proxy negotiator for a significant number of clans and individuals. Whether this constitutes and 'agency' basis - leaving him with the subsequent problem of negotiating with those sub-groups - or whether they sell directly at his agreed price, we aren't told, but there must be some sort of centralised structure as he has guards and a court and hence, revenue.

Likewise it's far from clear quite how any specific dwarf is recognised as a grag. It's clear from 5th Elephant and Thud! that their function is to advise, interpret, adjudicate and where necessary govern to some extent, in a context whereby local interpretations vary.

I'd suggest that 'grag' is a title bestowed by general consent on any dwarf able to attract sufficient support for his views, and/or ( because it may not be the same thing ) recognised as such by one or more self-selecting groups commonly recognised in this capacity; ie a grag may be self-appointed - in which case his authority only extends to those familiar with, and in agreement with, his doctrine; or he may be appointed by a recognised body, in which case he would be accorded the status by third parties on the strength of that and his verdicts accepted as 'correct' or 'orthodox'
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Postby LilMaibe » Sat May 28, 2011 5:29 pm

Tonyblack wrote:By the way - Dave Hayden is a member of the Cunning Artificer's site and is who Prof. Hayden is based on. He does indeed give talks on snakes and lizards. Terry contacted Dave while he was writing UA and asked his permission to use him in the book. Dave and his partner, Chris got married recently. :D


Aww :D

But on a not so bright note: What is with putting in all those references to friends and family in instead of having the established characters work on their own? :? It's puzzling
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Postby One Man Bucket » Sat May 28, 2011 6:54 pm

rockershovel wrote:I'd suggest that 'grag' is a title bestowed by general consent on any dwarf able to attract sufficient support for his views, and/or ( because it may not be the same thing ) recognised as such by one or more self-selecting groups commonly recognised in this capacity; ie a grag may be self-appointed - in which case his authority only extends to those familiar with, and in agreement with, his doctrine; or he may be appointed by a recognised body, in which case he would be accorded the status by third parties on the strength of that and his verdicts accepted as 'correct' or 'orthodox'


A good theory but how do you account for Grag Bashfulson? The most influential Ankh Morpork dwarfs seem to just barely recognise him as one and the Uberwald grags seem to view him with contempt. Rhys took him into her inner circle but she's a reformer so giving a controversial grag an advisory position seems just the sort of thing she'd do.
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Postby LilMaibe » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:37 am

A further note here (just sprang to mind...think I should get a healthier sleeping rythm to avoid thoughts like that?):

Could it be that homosexuals are the only minority/fringe group on the disc that actually get the full hatred, prejudice etc without having anyone to stand up for them?
I recently re-read Jingo and the note about Mr Harris in combination with what was said above and further it seems to me as if Gays are viewed as something fully unnatural, someone with a disease/disorder and dispicable even on the disc. Lesbians maybe not so much, but I can't say anything about that as I haven't read MR.
Happenings get hushed by the public and are best kept secret etc. Or seemingly get shrugged of as either -yeah, sometimes such (unnormal) things happen- or the like.

It's bothering me a bit. You thing Mr Pratchett maybe did that on purpose to show that even in a place like AM the worst and most stupid kind of prejudice prevails despite everything around it?
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Postby Tonyblack » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:36 am

I think prejudice of all sorts is pretty widespread on the Disc. Jingo makes that clear. Vimes himself seems prejudiced against vampires - although he's getting better. :)

Unfortunately, prejudice is a very human thing and Terry writes about humanity and all its flaws.
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