The Truth Discussion **Spoilers**

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Postby pip » Wed May 11, 2011 2:12 pm

Its a phrase Juvenal used in his satire to describe the gain of favour of the Roman public through popular short term shallow need fulfilment rather than actual hardwork and good policies . Thats how i remember it anyway :D
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Postby Penfold » Wed May 11, 2011 3:24 pm

Siren wrote:I still havent read this thread as I'm currently working through The Truth, should be done by later today so I'll be back with opinions later but...
On BBC breakfast news yesterday morning around 8am the female newsreader commented "The public interest and what the public are interested are two different things". In my half asleep state I thought 'Ye gods, she's quoting the book I'm reading, this is insane!'. But I think this must be a famous quote from elsewhere? Anyone know where it first surfaced? Quoting TP or not though,it was definitley a :shock: moment.
:lol:

I have no idea regarding this but on at least one occasion, in this book, Sir Terry has borrowed his quote from another source;
Winston Churchill wrote:A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.

:D
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Postby Siren » Wed May 11, 2011 8:38 pm

Very interesting and of course the point is not new, it's too true to be, but I still wonder if he was the first one to put it in so many words, in such a clever way? Thanks for the Winston quote Penfold, I thought it sounded a little familiar. I like the bit in the book where William confronts his father and says "the truth has got its boot's on. It's going to start kicking"
I found the whole scene one of the most exciting in the book, a proper show-down from which William exists a different man. He grudgingly accepts (with a little help from Otto :lol:) the parts of his make-up which he shares with his father and sees how he can put them to good use. And it's always fun to watch a someone grow and change through a story.

I had a feeling this book would be excellently observed (or even more than usual i should say!) what with Terry having spent such a large amount of his early life as a journalist. I found out recently that he has since admitted to making up some of his news stories at the time as a break from the monotony, which I found interesting in relation to how he writes about Dibbler's News stories. Saying that he has 'a knack' and 'imagi-', giving him some credit really.

I really loved the characters, especially Otto and his black ribbon imposed struggles... that bit "Sacharissa breathed so heavily that Otto groaned and averted his face and started humming frantically :lol:
Which other books does Otto appear in please? I read about him in Thud! but you don't see much of him there...
Mr.Pin and Tulip of course, pure quality... Reading everyone here's thoughts on the potato was interesting. I thought that perhaps with the potato he was talking about a distilled version of the Christian idea where clutching onto ones cross around the neck and repenting is all that really matters when you die... When Death is asking him if he's really sorry ect? Mr Tulip's not the brightest crayon but he's a 'good honest thug' which is maybe why he get to come back as a good honest woodworm? Mr.Pin on the other hand exclaims to death that he's sorry without really thinking about it or meaning it, doesn't he? So I thought maybe that's why he came back as a the potato... to fry :twisted:

Something else I really liked was the whole dog theme. When he's off to see a 'man about a dog' and then quite a bit later 'a dog about a man'. And how in the end he manages to make: 'DOG BITES MAN' news after all, relating back to his little chat with Vimes. Gaspode is great too, is he in many other books? I could just imagine him disguised as a poodle :lol:
Didn't get the 'Deep bone' code name though?

All in all I thought it was an excellent book and I even look forward to re-reading it at some point, I just know I will lots more out of it when I have read more books set in Ankh Morpork, as at this moment the only other is Thud. Now I'm off to start reading the copy of The Colour of Magic that I picked up the other day. I think it will be interesting to jump from the 25th book to the first and see in what ways the writing has changed.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed May 11, 2011 8:50 pm

:lol: Where to start!

Deep Bone, is almost certainly a reference to Deep Throat - not the movie starring Linda Lovelace, but the pseudonym given to the informant during the Watergate expose by the Washington Post. In some ways the events of The Truth have similarities to that investigation.

Gaspode first appears in Moving Pictures, but he plays a big part in Fifth Elephant.

Otto's other appearance (although it's not a big one) is in Monstrous Regiment. I can't remember any others, but if he's in them, then it's only in cameo roles. The Truth is his biggest role by far.

You are going to find The Colour of Magic very different indeed - but I'll say no more on that. :wink:
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Postby Siren » Wed May 11, 2011 9:10 pm

Ah brilliant, I was most confused. Was pretty sure it wasn't related to Linda Lovelace's er, adventures however :lol:

Good news on Fifth Elephant re Gaspode as well as that's lined up for after :D

By the way, (although the eventualities of the story are rather unforunate) when I saw the headline"'Invisible King' in attack on 'Silver Wizard'" I thought I was looking at a page from the Inquirer for the splittest second! Amazing how the Discworld makes you start looking at our own world a little differently...
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Postby raisindot » Thu May 12, 2011 1:51 am

Tonyblack wrote:
Gaspode first appears in Moving Pictures, but he plays a big part in Fifth Elephant.


He also has a fairly big part in Men at Arms as well. Isn't that his first appearance after his 'premature' demise in Moving Pictures?
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Postby raisindot » Thu May 12, 2011 1:58 am

More on Tulip, one of Pterry's greatest creations.

There's just so much about him that works. The fact that his taste goes from the sublime (his appreciation and knowledge of classic arti) to kitsch (the "barbecue apron" he steals from the thief).

And all of the "____ings." What's amazing is that after awhile you consciously stop trying to fill in the missing vulgarity and start announcing it literally. Stephen Briggs' gets it perfect on the audiobook version. In fact, The Truth is one of his better reads. He nails Pin and Tulip perfectly, his Otto is spot on, and his voicing of Deworde Senior can't be topped. His only weakness is William, who sounds a little too bland, and his Harry King makes the King of the Golden Rivers sound too much like a paper-pusher. He finally creates the definitive King voicing in Making Money.
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Postby raisindot » Thu May 12, 2011 2:02 am

swreader wrote:The only mention in Going Postal of others paper occurs when the Hangman talks about the press coverage of the hanging. He mentions What Gallows? , the Times, the Pseudopolis Herald, and the Sto Plains Dealer as having reporters there. This, I think is a case of Terry using something for a moment, but not exploring it.


It must be assumed that the other papers have copied the concept of the newspaper from the Times format, since it seems to be the first newspaper ever printed on the DW. Progress and innovation start in Ankh Morpork, even if its visionaries are scions of old money and craftsmen from Uberwald.
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Postby ChristianBecker » Thu May 12, 2011 9:34 am

@Siren

If you're going to read The Colour of Magic, you should also get The Light fantastic and read it after that. Those two actually belong together.
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Postby swreader » Fri May 13, 2011 5:15 am

One of the things that I found intriguing in this book was that it's the first book, really, where we see the ordinary citizens of Anhk-Morpork and how they view the political power structure. Granted, the denizens of Mrs. Arcanum's boarding house represent a small, but rather carefully chosen cross section (I think Terry did this deliberately) of the vast population of the city. They are not the movers or shakers, nor are they really nobility (William doesn't really count). They're not the head of Guilds--they're just ordinary people trying to make a living. They are, in our terms, John Q. Public.

Thus, their reaction to the two papers in interesting and instructive. By and large they seem to follow the Patrician's assessment in so far as they really want "olds" not "news", hence their preference for the Inquirer over William's paper. The Inquirer is entertaining, doesn't require any real thought or action, and makes one feel knowledgeable and good about one's self. William's paper, though it has some "human interest stories," has a great deal more serious news that bears on the significant actions going on in the City. Such news requires thought, and perhaps action--something most people are in favor of -- as long as someone else takes the necessary action.

I found the book funny, delightful, and -- in the final analysis--somewhat depressing. It says, I think, that it's important to know The Truth--but there is a significant cost in determining what it is and what should be done with that knowledge.
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Postby Cool Middle Name » Sat May 14, 2011 2:15 pm

Tonyblack wrote:The whole episode (what we know of it) of a young Tulip and the rest of his village hiding in a church and listening out for soldiers reminds me of a clip of a Russian movie I once saw about a group of nazis rounding up Russian villagers accused of hiding partisans, putting them in a church and setting fire to it. One young lad managed to escape, but was made to watch what happened. I can imagine something similar happening to Tulip.

The potato was the staple diet and an overheard remark by a youngster that 'we'll be ok as long as we have potatoes' could explain his philosophy. But all that is speculation. :)


I did not know any of this. Tulip hid in a church during an invasion?
Well your speculation makes sense anyway :)

Hmm...
I loved this book. I didn't care much for the main characters, William and particularly not Sacharissa who is a complete bore. William is intelligent, very much so, but his personality itself isn't that entertaining. Similiar to how I feel about Harry Potter, whose actor Daniel Radcliff cannot show proper emotions very well.

It was sad to watch Tulip die whilst Pin stole his religious item in cold blood. Reminds me of how Lenny died in Of Mice and Men. However the really funny part was the reincarnation at the end. It was ironic how Tulip's woodworm reform was chewing through a desk that he 'wood' have speculated in his human time.
Mr Pin, towards the end, reminded me of Duke Felmet from Wyrd Sisters. Quite evil, but both went insane when they realised what they had done.

When I first saw '-ing', I thought it was censorship by whatever producer had made this copy of the book, until they robbed the legendary CMOT Dibbler and he said 'he didn't trust people with dashes in their sentences.'
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Postby Cool Middle Name » Sat May 14, 2011 2:18 pm

Swreader, I think of the individual papers as something like this:

'The Times' is a factual newspaper that would attract sensible people like Magrat Garlick.

'The Inquirer' is something that contains as much fact as the words from Nanny Ogg's mouth.
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Postby swreader » Sat May 14, 2011 4:40 pm

Cool Middle Name wrote:Swreader, I think of the individual papers as something like this:

'The Times' is a factual newspaper that would attract sensible people like Magrat Garlick.

'The Inquirer' is something that contains as much fact as the words from Nanny Ogg's mouth.


It's almost impossible to relate any of the witches to the newspapers since they have such limited contact with AM. But Margrat Garlick could be described (at different times) as naive, unsophisticated, gradually growing into her witch and queen powers. None of that would seem to relate to your comment that 'The Times' ... would attract sensible people like Magrat Garlick." But that comparison is much better than your understanding of Nanny Ogg--who may seem to be a funny old lady, but who is, in fact, an extremely perceptive, highly skilled witch who has been the friend of the most powerful Witch in Lancre since they were both girls.

A better comparison would have to relate to the people of AM--those who want to know (even if they disapprove) what's going on read The Times. This is a paper that may require one to take some action, or refrain. It requires thought. People who are drawn to The Inquirer are those who want to be entertained by the fantastic, and to be able to claim they understand what's going on, even though there's not a scrap of truth in the paper.
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Postby Tonyblack » Sat May 14, 2011 5:34 pm

I suspect Magrat might actually believe some of the stories in the Inquirer - or printed anywhere else for that matter.

Nanny would enjoy the humourous vegetables in the Times, but she'd have no real need for a newspaper as she'd already KNOW what was going on - possibly before everyone else did. :wink:
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Postby rockershovel » Sat May 14, 2011 5:45 pm

Magrat always seems to be gullible - as reference her collection of magic knives and other pseudo-New Age clutter
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