Richard Dawkins?

[meerkat]

Well, what about life on Earth actually being Hell and when we kick the mortal coil etc etc, we then pass on to a better existence?

[Jan Van Quirm]

Dat's der Bunny meerkat - we're well and truly in it here and it's our one shot so make hay etc for tomorrow we could have a tsunami...

[deldaisy]

Don't you think that's true of all religious people? If they really believe in heaven, they can't possibly believe that atheists will get in, regardless of the life they've lead?

Not true Dots. My mum was very religious (quietly not the church type). My Dad was an absolute atheist. Mum was quietly confident that no matter what Dad said, she and he would end up in heaven together because her's was a forgiving god. and would forgive Dad for not believing He had NO way of arguing with that.

Emma Darwin was a bit gutted because not believing in God meant that Charles wouldn't get in. I think religious people often have issues with what will happen to them/their loved ones after they die, but then so do a lot of agnostics. This is why some sort of wishy-washy afterlife scenario was invented, and spiritual mediums are only too keen to keep this going. It's good that your mum found a way of coping, but really, it's still the "I'm guaranteed a spot" mentality.

I agree Dots. But then I never had atheism OR religion rammed down my throat. They managed to live under the same roof happily and it was never an issue. This type of discussion was never done to death over and over in our house. If WE raised the issue in conversation then they both gave their point of view... quietly.... but succinctly (?). I think it taught all of us to have alot of respect for someone elses faith or lack of faith or point of view. (without having to prove it either).

[poohcarrot]

But never mind not being able to design people properly, God also screwed up when it came to angels. Some of them stood up to him and they were banished as well.

Jesus promised that if you believed in him, you'd have ever lasting life.
What a con!
If you're bad, you have ever lasting life anyway, in hell.

And as God has set a precedent by banishing some of the angels from heaven, there is no guarentee that even if you do go to heaven, you'll stay there for eternity. If you don't follow the rules, you could get banished to hell.

Heaven is an autocracy! I feel sorry for any US creationists who end up there, believing they have freedom of speech, open their mouths then get instantly shunted off to hell.

Heaven seems to be a bit like Libya - only God has killed more people recently than Gaddafi. You've got a bloke at the top who's been at the top for ages and won't ever go. His son who's done a bit of travelling. (not quite sure what the holy spook does ). And if you stand up to God you get banished.

[raisindot]

Arrgh... I've got to be pulled into this again...

Creationism is the same as Christianity; it puts emphasis on how God loves EVERYONE, not just 'me, me, me'. Therefore it is not anything like Capitalism.

Surprising to find myself halfway agreeing with the Captain, but I do on this point.

Creationism is NOT the same as Christianity. As mentioned before, one can worship Jesus and still believe in evolution (all you need to do is to say that Genesis is an allegorical representation of a billion-year evolutionary process guided behind the scenes by God. No problem.)

But I do agree that creationism is nothing like capitalism. If anything,
capitalism, unchecked, is evolution in its purest form. If you follow Dawkin's 'selfish gene' hypothesis (and I do), organisms are nothing more than a machine for ensuring that one's genetic information gets passed on to the next generation. Natural selection is nothing more than the ability of one set of genes' ability to replicate than other sets of genes, due to local conditions. All behavior of organisims, from feeding to mating to fighting, is based on a need to pass on these genes. Genes also encourage organisms to form colonies, schools, or herds as a means of using the protective value of many as a means of increasing the odds that any individual's genes will be passed on.

This is the very definition of capitalism, which is, at is core, a strategy for ensuring that one has the monetary wealth to pass ones' genes on to future generations by exploiting the labor and stupidity of others.

[Willem]

Still, some would say that organised religion at it's core is often about manipulating the gullible masses into doing what those in power say, ostensibly for the good of the religion as a whole but in reality mostly benefitting those in power.

edit: at least Capitalism is more honest about these goals

[raisindot]

Still, some would say that organised religion at it's core is often about manipulating the gullible masses into doing what those in power say, ostensibly for the good of the religion as a whole but in reality mostly benefitting those in power.

Absolutely! But not always. The Amish, for example. They live like people did in the 18th century. They eschew modern technology and live mainly as farmers. They don't have a strong central power structure, nor are they particularly wealthy. Indeed, their whole way of life leaves them vulnerable to situations that could threaten their existence. For example, when tornadoes tear their communities, devastation results because they don't have TVs or phones or radios to warn them, and can only escape in horse-drawn buggies. They don't prosleytyze, and prefer not to deal with the outside world. Amish people could never live by themselves, because their way of life would threaten their ability to pass on their genes. So they live among themselves and support each other. This kind of altruistics society does aid in passing on the genes, but is really the opposite of what capitalism is about.

[raisindot]

...but if you're a creationist and guarenteed a place in heaven, while atheists will burn in hell, that obviously implies that creationists BELIEVE they are better.

Your arguments would be more cogent if you substituted "fundamentalists" for "Creationists." There are plenty of fundamentalists of all faiths who believe they have a place in Heaven and justify their violent acts by saying it's God's will (why not? There's plenty of language in the Bible and Qu'ran to support these genocidal impulses). But not all fundamentalists are necessarily Creationists. Many of these people, even a good share of the true whackjobs, accept the Intelligent Design rationale for evolution.

[snowballs]

Wow religion, alot of good points here.

I wonder, why can people not believe in whatever they want, whatever god they want or live whatever lifestyle they want as long as they dont either hurt others (both mentally & physically) or force their views down others throats?

In my eyes, God said to the devil," ok I made the world and I made people what can you do to beat that".
The devil replied "ok then I've just invented money & organised religion."


Thing is that some members are religious and could possibly get hurt by members pulling what they believe in apart.
Religion be it right or wrong actually makes believers happy on the whole, gives them a sense of worth and belonging, why not let them feel happy have a sense of worth and feel they belong to something?.

Just a thought.

[snowballs]

Well, what about life on Earth actually being Hell and when we kick the mortal coil etc etc, we then pass on to a better existence?

Read Astrid Lindgren's book the brothers lionheart (think it will be called in English, in Swedish bröderna lejonhjärta) a childrens book but pretty good also a film.

[Tonyblack]

Wow religion, alot of good points here.

I wonder, why can people not believe in whatever they want, whatever god they want or live whatever lifestyle they want as long as they dont either hurt others (both mentally & physically) or force their views down others throats?

In my eyes, God said to the devil," ok I made the world and I made people what can you do to beat that".
The devil replied "ok then I've just invented money & organised religion."


Thing is that some members are religious and could possibly get hurt by members pulling what they believe in apart.
Religion be it right or wrong actually makes believers happy on the whole, gives them a sense of worth and belonging, why not let them feel happy have a sense of worth and feel they belong to something?.

Just a thought.

I don't think anyone here has a problem with anyone else being religious. What some of us do have a problem with is people who rubbish our beliefs but don't have a reasonable alternative other than 'it's written in the Bible, therefore it must be right.'

This is a thread about Richard Dawkins and therefore is almost bound to be a comparison between Evolution and Creationism. If people don't want to join in then they needn't bother opening the thread.

But as many of Terry's books are critical of organised religion, a site dedicated to his writing is likely to attract members who think that way too.

[snowballs]

OK, I understand, it was just a thought as it seems that religion gets rubbished. Not that I'm religious, I dod say that religion is ok as long as it is not forced down your throat.

I just see religion basically as one of the foundation stones all societies are built upon even though the vast majority of the population are not in the slightest religious.

[Tonyblack]

I'm a cynic I'm afraid and I always say that religion was invented when the first conman met the first sucker.

[Quatermass]

I'm a cynic I'm afraid and I always say that religion was invented when the first conman met the first sucker.

I disagree with you there, Tony. I think it's far more likely that organised religion was invented that way.

[snowballs]

When I lived in Camphill they had a bibel evening every week, even though many of the coworkers were not christian.
This started people talking about if it was right to only base the way we worked round christianity.
How I saw it was that antrophosophy is build up around christianity and camphill is built up around antrophosophy so it is right if they had bibel evenings. To make everybody happy they started a group of anybody who was interested to discuss religion where no one was allowed to say "that is wrong" when somebody explained their beliefs. The main reply to things was why? why was that?, it was actually fun and taught people more about different societies than it did about religion. If an argument can not answer the why without quoting the bibel or saying because god/allah/Om( ) said so then that is not a viable argument.

Darwin answered the why? the how the when and all the other bits (almost) through pure logic but he was almost outcast for it, that was totally wrong no matter what anybody says. Is creationism even a real religion? or an excuse for believers to be lazy and let somebody else do the thinking? (question not an accusation)

In my mind, maybe there is a god, does he deserve worship? no because he has done a pretty poor job if humanity is his ultimate creation, it proves that he/she is a long way from perfect based on the fact that humanity has gone very wrong, just look around.

To make some people go through torture, rape, murder, genocide, starvation, droughts, wars............................................... is not what should happen, again, why? A god who makes people or animals go through that cannot be good they must be evil. Also a god who demands worship or you will burn in hells fires can not be good. One what would be the difference for many who live on earth now, they are in hell. Two why if god is all good does he/she threaten us if we dont worship them, thats an evil threat, pure bullying.

That Jesus died to free us from our sins, he failed, again, just look around, the only way that could have succeded was to blow the world up while he was just hung on the cross.
That the world is only a few thousand years old not even worth thinking about.

One does not have to be religious to live after the teachings from any of the holy books, be good, be kind, think of others over yourselves sometimes.

9 times out of ten you can not fight fire with fire, water works better.
Maybe if everybody in the world fought hate with love instead of hate against hate then the earth would be a better place.

Oh no, I'm off on one arnt I?