Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby deldaisy » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:32 am

I am halfway through reading all the comments in this thread (jumping around front and back). I am almost finished rereading Thud again and didn't want to read this thread before I reread it. Have my own views about the book and the deep meanings about race/religion/Koom Valley but have a headache and will do that another day.

Where's My Cow? Have none of you ever had kids? I know you have. Since I was one of the last born in my enormous family I was chief babysitter for many many years and then of course my own children. Little ones LOVE books like "Wheres My Cow?" and yes they read the same book EVERY night for six months sometimes, and still can't wait for you to turn the page. I see the publication of the book along with Thud very clever.... and how wonderful to introduce your baby to DW. I think sometimes DW devotees see alot from a very introspective view. I would buy "Where's My Cow" as a stand alone book for my toddler even of if I had never heard of Discworld.
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Postby Willem » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:26 am

My two-year-old also has a couple of books that are staple in the going to bed ritual. I've memorised 3 of them by now just by reading them so much, so I can recite them while she holds them and turns the pages. She knows two of them by heart herself now so sometimes she 'reads' them to me too :) I do vary it up though, I read a different new story to her each night and if she ask for one of the regulars after that, we read that one too.

I wouldn't give her Where's My Cow yet, because even though we try and teach her to treat books well, there's always the chance of creases in pages and such. The should have made it a cardboard book!
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Postby raisindot » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:35 pm

deldaisy wrote:Where's My Cow? Have none of you ever had kids? I know you have. Since I was one of the last born in my enormous family I was chief babysitter for many many years and then of course my own children. Little ones LOVE books like "Wheres My Cow?" and yes they read the same book EVERY night for six months sometimes, and still can't wait for you to turn the page. I see the publication of the book along with Thud very clever.... and how wonderful to introduce your baby to DW. I think sometimes DW devotees see alot from a very introspective view. I would buy "Where's My Cow" as a stand alone book for my toddler even of if I had never heard of Discworld.


This is a total YMMV situation. I think some of us "introspective" DW fans saw the rather blatant plug of WMC in Thud! as a rather cynical marketing gimmick. Personally, I think the book is pretty (as the Brits say) pants, almost seeming more of a joke aimed at adult DW fans than as a real children's book. Then again, my kids were way beyond kids book stage when it was published. And I might have had an entirely different view of the book if Pterry hadn't plugged it so mercilessly in Thud! God forbid the man actually leverage his ownership of Discworld for (shudder!!!!!!!!!) commercial purposes!!!!

:roll:

Then again, I completely demonstrated my hypocrisy on this very same issue by spending close to $90 to purchase a used Thud! game. So what the hell do I know?

:D

J-I-B

J-I-B

:D
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Postby deldaisy » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:53 am

Willem wrote:My two-year-old also has a couple of books that are staple in the going to bed ritual. I've memorised 3 of them by now just by reading them so much, so I can recite them while she holds them and turns the pages. She knows two of them by heart herself now so sometimes she 'reads' them to me too :) I do vary it up though, I read a different new story to her each night and if she ask for one of the regulars after that, we read that one too.

I wouldn't give her Where's My Cow yet, because even though we try and teach her to treat books well, there's always the chance of creases in pages and such. The should have made it a cardboard book!

First edition children's books or in fact any kind of old child's in amazing condition is worth a mint in the world of books for the very reason you say Willem. But then I would rather a book mangled to bits because a child loved it rather than a prisine one a child had not loved. Beside you can pay up to $50 for crappy Barbie books so why NOT spend a bit for a good book for a child. (You can always buy a "Wheres My Cow" copy for yourself and hide it away if you want prisine.)
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Postby DaveC » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:46 am

Finished Thud! yesterday. Love it. This discussion thread is immense but I have a few points to add to it:

a) I was really getting into the scene of Nobby and Colon in the museum at the beginning and was disappointed that no more was made of it until Vimes' interrogation of Helmclever. I thought they were going to use it as an excuse to be inside alot, away from the riots but all they did was make a report.
b) I like Death's little scene so don't mind his ongoing reduced role but where the heck is Dibbler? If used to be around every corner but I haven't seen him since Night Watch, if was in Where's My Cow but I don' think that counts.

Also where is Reg Shoe?

That is all, on to Wintersmith now. :)
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Postby raisindot » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:40 am

Kind of agree with you there about Dibbler. He at least might have added some commentary during the near confrontation between the trolls and the dwarfs. Would've been nice if he had been one of the irregulars (although he isn't a fighting man), or at least had been the one Vimes asked to supply the dwarf and troll beer.
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:01 am

The bit with Nobby and Colon at the gallery was, in effect, a piece of the puzzle that was the mystery. Vimes might (or might not) have solved the crime sooner if he'd had that piece, but Nobby and Colon aren't taken seriously and no one was really bothered to notice their report.

From the reader's point of view it added to the story as the reader could see that it was probably significant - even if Fred and Nobby didn't have a clue.

I always thought the art curator in the book was a parody of this guy. :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:43 pm

Oh yeah! :roll: But Michelangelo still sculpted and painted absolutely crap women as they didn't have lady shot-putters on steroids back then! :evil:
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Postby Pearwood » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:27 am

One thing that bugs me about Vimes in this book is when he brings all traffic to a halt in Ankh Morpork so he won't be late to read to his son. Abusing his power in that way just made him seem like a complete hypocrite to me and I've really gone off the character :evil:
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Postby Tonyblack » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:34 pm

Pearwood wrote:One thing that bugs me about Vimes in this book is when he brings all traffic to a halt in Ankh Morpork so he won't be late to read to his son. Abusing his power in that way just made him seem like a complete hypocrite to me and I've really gone off the character :evil:
But he doesn't. :?

It's Carrot that does that - Vimes is shocked by it but realises that that's the way Carrot thinks. Vimes would never have done that himself. He takes advantage of what Carrot has done, but he neither ordered it or approves of it.
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Postby Pearwood » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:51 pm

Really? I guess I need to read this one again! :oops:
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Postby Tonyblack » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:02 pm

:lol: It's always worth rereading Discworld books. I've read Thud! dozens of times and still pick up on new things on each reading.
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Postby raisindot » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:08 pm

Tonyblack wrote:
Pearwood wrote:One thing that bugs me about Vimes in this book is when he brings all traffic to a halt in Ankh Morpork so he won't be late to read to his son. Abusing his power in that way just made him seem like a complete hypocrite to me and I've really gone off the character :evil:
But he doesn't. :?

It's Carrot that does that - Vimes is shocked by it but realises that that's the way Carrot thinks. Vimes would never have done that himself. He takes advantage of what Carrot has done, but he neither ordered it or approves of it.


But what Vimes does approve of (and even instigates) is using The Watch as his own livery service, in effect, using a publicly funded institution for his own personal, non-emergency benefit. Vimes himself might never have closed off traffic, but he has no right to disapprove of Carrot's action, since he enabled this practice in the first place.
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Postby swreader » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:29 pm

raisindot wrote: But what Vimes does approve of (and even instigates) is using The Watch as his own livery service, in effect, using a publicly funded institution for his own personal, non-emergency benefit. Vimes himself might never have closed off traffic, but he has no right to "disapprove of Carrot's action, since he enabled this practice in the first place.


I know you don't like Thud! (though I've never really understood why since I think it may be his best book), but could you provide some support for the assertion that "But what Vimes does approve of (and even instigates) is using The Watch as his own livery service, in effect, using a publicly funded institution for his own personal, non-emergency benefit." I

I have no idea what you are referring to (in this book or any other). If anything, Vimes's problem is (as Sybil understands) that he is so devoted to the Watch that he is in grave danger of having no other life. That's hardly consistent with your comment.[/quote]
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Postby raisindot » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:00 pm

swreader wrote:
raisindot wrote: But what Vimes does approve of (and even instigates) is using The Watch as his own livery service, in effect, using a publicly funded institution for his own personal, non-emergency benefit. Vimes himself might never have closed off traffic, but he has no right to "disapprove of Carrot's action, since he enabled this practice in the first place.


I know you don't like Thud! (though I've never really understood why since I think it may be his best book), but could you provide some support for the assertion that "But what Vimes does approve of (and even instigates) is using The Watch as his own livery service, in effect, using a publicly funded institution for his own personal, non-emergency benefit." I

I have no idea what you are referring to (in this book or any other). If anything, Vimes's problem is (as Sybil understands) that he is so devoted to the Watch that he is in grave danger of having no other life. That's hardly consistent with your comment.



Excuse me, I'm not sure which 'me' in an alternative universe you're referring to, but in this one I've NEVER said that I didn't like Thud. I LOVE Thud. It's #3 in my top #5 DW book list, and I've probably made more positive comments about it than any other DW book. Indeed, I have trouble understanding why certain people (like Pooh) DON'T like it so much.

And, since apparently you've totally missed this whole bit about Vimes using the Watch for his personal use, I strongly suggest you re-read it again, but I'll summarize it for you. After leaving his meeting with Crystophase(sp.) at the Pork Futures Warehouse, Vimes' "Disorganizer imp" reminds him that he needs to get home by 6:00. Panicking, Vimes tells the imp to get to the nearest klacks tower to send a message to the Watch that he's on his way home. From this action, it's quite clear that all the Watch are aware of this nightly ritual and are being called in to help. He starts running, and then literally "cart-jacks" a cart that he drives to the river's edge. On the other side, Carrot meets up with him in a mail coach he (Carrot) has diverted solely for the purpose of getting Vimes home, which includes clearing the streets of traffic, to which Vimes offers a feeble protest.

So, in summary: Vimes is okay with using the Watch to help him get home, but diverting traffic for this purpose goes beyond his sense of what's right and wrong. Never mind that he is diverting coppers from solving crimes, being on patrol and is using both public and private resource for his own benefit. The only part he mildly objects to is what he sees as Carrot 'going too far.' But this almost seems more of astonishment on the part of Vimes that Carrot would have the audacity to do such a thing, rather than a moral objection.

Now, I don't 'hate' Vimes for doing this, since he does devote himself nearly totally to the Watch. But this action indicate that he is not necessarily as "straight as an arrow" as people say (remember, right before he starts using the Watch as his personal livery service, he destroys the fur coat that Crystophase attempts to bribe him with).

There's a good reason why Pterry puts these two bits next to each other--to show that Vimes may be honest, but he's not "Boy Scout" honest and that occasionally using his authority for personal gain is one of those unique perks of being in the Watch; the Vimes equivalent of Fred Colon extorting restaurant owners for free good or Nobby cleaning out the petty cash. The only difference here is that while Colon's action has only a small effect on a single merchant's profitability, Vimes' actions disrupt the entire city.
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