The Colour of Magic Movie

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Postby Jarmara » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:27 pm

mspanners, have you read any of the responses, or just the first line and hit reply? :roll:

Oh, I don't mean to be confrontational, I just mean that everyone's said Yes, the Counterweight continent is a parody of the Orient, that's why he called it the Aurient, confirming the parody whilst punning on the periodic table.

However, following your own logic - what of the issues already pointed out elsewhere on this thread, of visitors to the country not being spotted on sight as looking different to everyone else?

The Mob were making an adaptation of CoM as a thing in it's own right, not as a prequel to making Interesting Times. In CoM, Twoflower is nota Japanese tourist - he's a Counterweight Tourist, a cliche of all known earthy tourists. Making him American is fine, there's nothing in CoM that states catagorically that Twoflower is noticeably Oriental, in fact he does come across as being more American than anything else in that book.

Did they opt for an American Twoflower for commercial reasons? Quite possibly but not, I hope you can see, entirely without justification.
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Postby Tonyblack » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:28 pm

mspanners wrote:
I think Twoflower was Americanised for the TV show to appeal to the market place,the US is one of the biggest markets and by making Twoflower More American than Oriental the show would attract a bigger audience.

Well that my opinion, make of it what you will. :shock:


Do you really think Americans are going to be impressed by a stereotype of an American tourist? :shock:

Why would more people watch a show with an American playing a part than an Oriental? Is someone really likely to say: "I'm not going to watch that - it's got a Chinese guy in it!"?

How many American actors were in Hogfather? Presumably they wanted to show the program over there as well?

And how do you know that Llamedosians don't sound Welsh?

I once saw a stage play of Wyrd Sister and the actress playing Nanny Ogg did it with a Welsh accent - I always hear her like that now. Just as I can hear Granny with a Norfolk accent. It doesn't mean that's how they are supposed to sound. Actually, I think you said Lancre reminded you of Switzerland - maybe they should have Swiss accents. :lol:

Honestly, I don't see what your problem is. I thought Sean Astin did a great job at playing Twoflower - I'll admit I had my reservations. But the fact is, HE did play Twoflower and that's a fact. Complaining that it should have been Samo Hung, or Jet Lee isn't going to change that. :D
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Postby mspanners » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:03 pm

Sorry if I have stirred up a Hornets nest here but,yet again in my own opinion (and a few people who have posted pages about the book on the Net see the links I previously posted here), it was established in Interesting Times that the Counter Weight Continent was Oriental in appearance if not actuality.

Well I understand that it is Not China or any other Earthly Country as it is set on the Disc.

Why were the in the Audio Books the Agateans Voiced as Orientals? I assume Terry would have had some control over the characterisation of the Audio Books.

Also Don't forget that in the books foreigners were discouraged by the Empire, so it is unlikely that Twoflower would have had the appearance of a westerner as it is doubtful any would have been allowed to settle there.

I just find it difficult to accept that in a country that is almost an exact parallel of China that Terry would have peopled it with parades of Americans.

And Yes I think it would appeal to the Americans to see a Part Played as an American in the Show.

I enjoyed the TV show but I think it was a bit of a sale out altering Twoflower ( sorry I just don't see Him as a Westerner)and dropping quite a lot out of the books.

They should have been more true to the books and made a two part show IE just done The Colour of Magic with Twoflower as a Oriental man, and then done the light Fantastic as the next instalment.

And how do you know that Llamedosians don't sound Welsh?

Errr... sorry I thought that thats what the Llamedosians were based on, the Welsh...they sounded Welsh in the Cartoon Soul Music.
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Postby Tonyblack » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:09 pm

:lol: I don't think anything is going to make you change your mind - it's obviously firmly set, so I'm not going to try. :lol:

As to whether they should have made longer episodes or did Colour of Magic this year and Light Fantastic next year - no, I don't think so.

If you want the whole thing then read the book. If people have never read Terry's books before have seen this and it has persuaded them to read the book then that's great.

The best movies are always the ones you show inside your head when you read a book. :wink:

That way you can cast whoever you like and give them whatever accents you like.
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Postby Jason » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:13 pm

No need to apologise. Friendly debate is what makes message boards like this so much fun. I think this is our first real difference of opinion.

Nobody suggested that Twoflower was not part of the Counterweight Continent. Twoflower probably looks like everyone else. Maybe nobody looks oriental there.

As you pointed out foreigners were discouraged by the empire so how did Rincewind not get noticed as being different unless he looked similar to all the locals.

Why did the Agateans sound oriental in the audio-books? Because like the movie they were adaptations open to interpretation. Terry has accepted both Amerian and oriental voices now so which one is correct? As he has more recent accepted the American accent maybe that is his current view on how the people of the counterweight should sound.
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Postby mspanners » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:20 pm

Amen to that,anyway the Books are the best form of enjoying Terry's sense of Fun! 8)

There have been few good book to film adoptions that I have enjoyed as much as the Books.

The Lord Of The Rings Extended DVD's spring to mind, I tried to sit through all Three Back to Back once when the Wife was away on a Hen do!

That was a Longggg day but good fun.

But at the end of the day the books are the best way to enjoy the ideas the author has put to paper.

Maybe Rincewind was of Oriental..........Sorry agatean decent?

Has there been a detailed discription of Him in any book................
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Postby Tonyblack » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:26 pm

Actually, what I've been surprised at is how well david Jason seems to have been accepted as Rincewind once everyone had actually seen him in the part.

I remember when it was first mentioned that he would play the part people were in uproar on various message boards. People really didn't seem to care for the choice. Since the program everyone seems to have gone quiet about it.

I know he wouldn't have been my first choice, but I was pleasantly surprised at his characterisation of Rinso.
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Postby mspanners » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:44 pm

Nigel Planer would have been a better choice I think as Rincewind.

Well good Night all.

I am off to work.

A friend asked me why I work Nights as as far as He was concerned only Bats, Tw*ts or Vampires work at Night.

Lucky for Him I am A Black Ribboner........... :twisted:

Night Night all.
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Postby Tonyblack » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:47 pm

Nighty night! :lol:
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Postby Casaninbetween » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:30 pm

lawrenson wrote:Hi,

I'm sorry, but Craig Charles is no more hispanic than he is Chinese. And Lister is just Craig Charles.

His father was black, his mother white Irish, and he was born and raised in Liverpool!

Smmmmmeeeeeeggggg....... :lol:

Cheers,
Karen


Ok, my bad.

I did read, however, in Robert "Kryten" Llewellyn's book The Man in the Rubber Mask, that the Americans didn't want to cast Lister as black haired and with a light brown skin in the US version of Red Dwarf, due to the risk of the Hispanic population seeing him as a parodical Hispanic man.

Jarmara wrote:(...) what of (...) visitors to the country not being spotted on sight as looking different to everyone else?


That surprised me when I read the book, and it's also, in my opinion, the most convincing argument why Counterweight Continenters should look like people from Ankh-Morpork. And so, I have to agree with you on this. It's probably canon that these two people do look alike. The fact that Terry approved of the casting of Sean Austen as Twoflower is also a good argument for this.

However, I think a parody should be as similar as possible to the things it parodies. Therefore I think Interesting Times would not be a good parody as a movie. Making the Counterweight Continenters look non-Chinese would be too big a change from real-world China. People would be confused, thinking something along the lines of: "I don't get it. Was it a parody of China or not? The society certainly seemed like China... But the people didn't look Chinese? And why on Earth would anyone make a parody of China with only caucasian people in it?" And the whole parody might be lost.

As a book, we never get this problem, as the appearance of the people is, as many of you've said, never revealed.

Jarmara wrote:Making him American is fine, there's nothing in CoM that states catagorically that Twoflower is noticeably Oriental, in fact he does come across as being more American than anything else in that book.


I have to disagree. Consider Twoflower. He is:

    Short
    Bespectacled
    Overly interested in taking photos
    Overly polite


All of these are aspects of the western stereotype of the Japanese tourist (perhaps I should say "Oriental tourist", since most westerners mix up China, Japan, Thailand etc.).

A parodical American tourist would probably be fat and boastful (no offence, Americans). And he probably wouldn't be called "Twoflower".
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Postby swreader » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:14 am

mspanners wrote:So if Twoflower was not meant to be of Oriental stock then why was His home a near copy of pre communist China.... :?

I think Twoflower was Americanised for the TV show to appeal to the market place,the US is one of the biggest markets and by making Twoflower More American than Oriental the show would attract a bigger audience.

Well that my opinion, make of it what you will. :shock:


Having read mspanners insistent comments -- which amount to (in my opinion) if Terry & the Mob had asked me how to cast this movie, here are the changes I would have insisted on--

Come on, mspanners-- who died and made you gods. Terry and the film company decided to cast this in a particular fashion. The only legitimate comment one could make is that YOU think it would have been better to cast an oriental in the role of Twoflower.

As a matter of fact, I agree with that position myself (because that is indeed how I picture the character). And certainly, not having seen Color of Magic, I cannot comment on how effective the American actor was, but everyone seems to think he did a good job of playing the quintessential tourist. But the fact is-- the book is fiction. The movie is a fictional creation of a work of fiction. And as Tony pointed out, Terry has shown that if he has strong objections to the way something is proposed to be filmed, he will not allow that producer to film it. So, Terry did not object to this actor.

I happen to think it was a less than optimal choice of the race of actor, but I don't know all the problems or complexities which went into making this picture. If Terry was satisfied, then I think it's rather silly to complain. What do you expect them to do? Remake the movie to your specifications?

As for the idea that an American actor was chosen to increase American sales--if you knew anything at all about American film audiences you would know just how ludicrious that statement is. :lol: In the first place probably 80% of the audience at any given performance would not have read the book, and so would not be influenced one way or the other. The actor is not a big enough "name" to draw audiences (and there are few of those around these days). And if one really thought that a somewhat unflattering portrait of a character as played by a Caucasian American (you know Americans come in all colors--one of our Black Americans is running for President at the moment)rather than an oriental would increase the sales--well one simply doesn't know what one is talking about! :roll:

This, by the way, to everyone, is why I dislike having books made into movies--and the better the book the more I dislike it. Movies, even special ones like LOTR, have to modify and delete things because that's the nature of the time of movies. Further, each individual who reads the book sees the characters differently. That does not make any one's vision "Right" or "Wrong" -- it simply makes it that individual's.
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Postby mspanners » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:34 am

Well I think that they will have to do some MAJOR re-writing to do of the Book Interesting Times if they ever intend to do that Book.
Can't see how they would be able to cast the people of the Agatean Empire as Caucasian when it is plainly obvious to anyone who as read the book that they are Asian, Terry had even hid in jokes within the story line of the Book pointing to this.
Do a search on Google for the Agatean Empire and Wiki will have links on this subject. I rest my case.................

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:5M ... k&ie=UTF-8

http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Agatean_Empire



http://www.discworldemporium.com/catalo ... 4&catid=13

http://www.indopedia.org/Agatean_Empire.html

http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/florent.bouche ... flower.png

http://www.lspace.org/art/fan-art/image ... ower-3.jpg

Extract from following link..............

Enter Twoflower, from an isolated country on the far side of Discworld (not the flip-side, mind you), an insurance actuary who has decided to become the world's first, and so far only, tourist. Picture him as a pudgy little Asian guy with glasses & a camera slung around his neck. Only the camera is actually a box containing a small demon who paints really sharp pictures really fast.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... ie%3DUTF-8


And there is more if you care to look........so its not just me that got the impression the Empire is a Asian one.
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Postby Dotsie » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:17 am

I think it's unlikely that Interesting Times will be made, not by Sky One anyway. If they do any more it will be the witches or the watch.

As for Twoflower looking like a Westerner.... there's no West on the Disc :wink:
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Postby Jason » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:30 am

Your link to Lspace has a quote that says it all really:

Annotations

Like several other Discworld countries and/or geographical regions, the Agatean Empire bears some resemblence (sic) to countries in our world. The most obvious references that come to mind are China and Japan.



I think the important word here is resemblance. The Agatean Empire resembles China not is China. It certainly doesn't claim the people that live there look Chinese.
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:20 am

:D At this point let us talk about Klingons. Bear with me here.

In the original 60s Star Trek a Klingon (Commander Kor in this case) looked like this:

Image

However a decades down the line and Kingons had changed - almost beyond recognition. Here's another picture of Kor from a later series:

Image

Now how come Klingons changed so much and everyone just accepted them? :?

There was a mention of this change in Deep Space Nine. When Worf was asked he said "We don't talk about it!" And that was that. You can do almost anything you like with Sci-Fi and Fantasy.

If you want to fill a country that is clearly a parody of the Orient with Caucasians, then why not? There's no law against it and I'm sure someone could come up with a reason fror it. In fact, if Terry's much explored multiple universe theory is correct, then there is a planet Earth somewhere where the Orientals are Caucasian and the Caucasians are Oriental. :lol:
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