Going Postal Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby mspanners » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:07 pm

Emmmm...... Gilt, I think Vetinari was hoping for a result but He needed a lever on Him, that is why He always offers the door to prospective people.

IF they take the job then they are in His pocket for good, take the door and that's the end of them, better to have a cunning man under you control than free to threaten your position, either way He had to do something with Gilt.

I think He was hopeful, without Gilt His next choice is Moist and I think He wanted Him free to concentrate on the Past Office.

Vetinari runs the show.... no doubts. :shock:
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Postby Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:05 pm

Moist DID go and open the door and look down and drop his "spoon" gift from the jail to see how far it was down before coming to the conclusion that just like the jail cell block, the Offer of Freedom is much better sport than allowing you to Have freedom. That part before the hanging is important in how you view Moist. He didn't react badly, when the guards came in cheering him.

Vetinari shows some mortal traits, as in Jingo with the sudden intake of breath and general running, hopping, skipping the traps to get back to Leonard Da Quirm's room to stop and catch his breath and open the door to ask "What did you just say?"

Gilt was soo smart that he just chose the door in the end like a Fik Troll.

Very good quote tho about learning one's Own foibles before assuming you are simply "All That AND a Bag of Crisps" That was my ex-husband's favorite saying... Always be aware of your shortcomings... But, he meant it as a way of controlling others.

mumblemumbleshould'vejustkilledhimmumblemumblemumble
Aha! So, Bob's yer uncle... very clever.
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Postby Danny B » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:42 pm

First of all, I'm sorry to interject with something completely off topic, but in honour of Tina's 888th post, I'd like to place a link to This Picture.

I'd also like to chip in with the discussion on whether or not Moist can have any moral authority in the story, due to his despicable and reprehensible actions in the past.

As someone with a less than perfect moral record myself, I like to believe he can. Initially, Moist treats his "appointment" as just another con job; trying to get people to believe he's a good and trustworthy person. Over the course of the novel, I think this gives way to something much more real, Moist trying an even bigger con. Trying to convince himself he's a good and trustworthy person.

I also believe Moist is punished for his crimes, although not in a conventional manner. Vetinari makes him famous; removing his anonymity, his ability to blend into the crowd and just be "the bloke with an honest face", removing his primary weapon of deceit and neutering his ability to perpetuate further thefts. There's also the fact that Vetinari puts him to work in a job that has killed multiple people before Moist, many of them better trained to deal with that danger in a physical sense. I honestly don't think Vetinari expects Moist to succeed, or even to survive. He simply wishes to make his death useful, allowing Vetinari to put one of his - no doubt many - alternate plans into action effectively. Moist is put into a position of possible death, versus certain death. All through the novel the noose is still very much around his neck and even at the end isn't truly removed, merely set aside for future use. I don't think Moist is free, merely trapped in a very large prison.

Moral complexity is something Terry excels at, often putting stereotypically "good" acts into the hands of bad people - see the Fairy Godmother in WA -, as well as making bad characters his main heroes, - see Sam Vimes on first appearance; a drunkard, happy to let the city go to wrack and ruin around him while he drinks himself into an early grave -. I don't think Moist is quite so much a "shell" character, as the Ur form of a character with much greater development to come. Both Granny Weatherwax and Vimes were faintly shallow characters with little other purpose than somewhere to hang the plot when they first appeared.
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Postby Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:25 pm

Now, there's a curious squid I would Not want to meet on a dock... omg :shock: What on Disc is that?

Edit: Doh, Oct Oct Oct... lol :lol:
Last edited by Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit on Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Aha! So, Bob's yer uncle... very clever.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:00 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Your reasons are impeccable and correct - but you're wrong about Vetinari being a block of wood emotionally and/or intellectually.


That's cheating! :shock:

You can't argue me with me about something I never said :lol:

I love Vetinari. He is one of my top 5 favourite characters. In GP he's wonderful, possibly even the best character.

(Actually, I've just re-read your post and your last paragraph isn't arguing with me at all. You are actually arguing with your own penultimate paragraph. :lol: )
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Postby poohbcarrot » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:39 am

Chapter 9

"That (Mr Pump) don't frighten me!" said Jim. "They ain't allowed to hurt folks!"
"Wrong", said Moist. "Probably dead wrong."

............

"Right, that's it!" Jim roared, shaking his brother away. Mr Pump's fists raised instantly.

(*starts humming Guns & Roses theme from Terminator*)
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Postby Dotsie » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:05 am

poohbcarrot wrote:Chapter 9

"That (Mr Pump) don't frighten me!" said Jim. "They ain't allowed to hurt folks!"
"Wrong", said Moist. "Probably dead wrong."

............

"Right, that's it!" Jim roared, shaking his brother away. Mr Pump's fists raised instantly.

(*starts humming Guns & Roses theme from Terminator*)


Now I don't even know what you're on about :lol: He's still being told what to do by a government official, isn't he?

Except now it seems that Mspanners thinks that Vetinari might be God :shock:
What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:01 am

pooh wrote:That's cheating!

You can't argue me with me about something I never said

I love Vetinari. He is one of my top 5 favourite characters. In GP he's wonderful, possibly even the best character.

(Actually, I've just re-read your post and your last paragraph isn't arguing with me at all. You are actually arguing with your own penultimate paragraph. )

This one?
Jan Van Quirm wrote: How does 'worried' sit with you? - that is perhaps the word I should have used along with calm, but the other thing that Vetinari's good at is trusting in himself and his abilities. At that first meeting Gilt has the upper hand and knows it and so does Vetinari. That's why he's the best and knows when and who to play and is never, never careless. But that doesn't mean he can't feel the odd tinge of anxiety - humans have hormonal and emotional stimuli for a reason and thats why the thought of robots/Golems/Terminators are so scary because they only have software and irrefutable logic. They don't have impulse or irrational spontaneity. Vetinari in that respect is 'Golemic' because he never loses control of his emotions but he does knows how that feels even if he doesn't act on those impulses - he gets someone who does instead - Moist in this case. :wink:

You said he wasn't afraid at all because he knew he was going to win all the way along? Didn't you?
pooh wrote:
Jan Van Quirm wrote: I think Vetinari was calmly afraid of Gilt's potential to seriously screw A-M over
Disagree 100% with you there, Jan.

As soon as Vetinari met Gilt, Vetinari not only knew he would beat him, but also knew why he would beat him, and he knew how he would beat him......

Yes you did. As in you disagreed 100% that Vetinari could be calmly afraid?

What I actually said was that Vetinari was 'calmly afraid' - later 'reduced' to worried/anxious (because those are forms of fear too for people who don't have to be constantly macho and be the 'Big I am' - like Gilt). Vetinari, like most flesh and blood creatures can be worried/calmly afraid about a situation but not give into his concerns to the point where it clouds his judgment :roll:

Made it easier for you to see the bits that you didn't want to reread properly by marking them in blue. What I'm sayiing is that Vetinari is human and he cares for the city - he serves the city best by remaining detached and analytical to the point where he has conquered his feelings even though he will still have them and uses them to make informed choices and off the wall thinking to achieve a win, often win-win as in this book he also acquires and moulds a person who can also play games in a different way to him and has him on side as yet another weapon/tool to keep AM on course.

I occasionally think that you can argue like a Jesuit but you do need more practice. Happy to help you out for as long as it takes... :wink:

Read. Don't just cast around for what supports your own arguments.

I love Vetinari too - we agree on that a lot. I just don't see him as some kind of cold all-knowing superhuman. And he/Terry doesn't either.
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Postby mspanners » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:47 am

As far as anyone living in the City Vetinari is God......

He has the power of life or death over them all even if some of the Guild leaders think otherwise.

And He always finds a way of making them do as He want,if that's not a super power then I don't know what is............ but I wonder which God is pulling Vetinaris strings? :lol:
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Postby Trish » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:45 pm

Danny B wrote:(Can) Moist have any moral authority in the story, due to his despicable and reprehensible actions in the past?


Moral authority /ethical authority does it matter? Moist has no credibility.

Readers know this. Vetinari, Drumknott and Mr Trooper know this because they were "in" on Spangler's hanging.

Morals are what a society collectively decides a certain standard is.
usually behavior, often belief. Either way, morals are man-made = made-up.


Ethical authority is kind of neat. I'll come back to that.


Danny B wrote:Initially, Moist treats his "appointment" as another con; trying to get people to believe he's a good and trustworthy person.


That is Moist's stock-in-trade. Getting people to believe -in him, in his trustworthiness, in his "line"-- is what he's always been about.


Danny B wrote: Over the course of the novel, I think this gives way to something much more, Moist trying an even bigger con. Trying to convince himself he's a good and trustworthy person.


Does he? Or, every few pages, does he think: "I can give this up anytime. Next week, maybe. After I see Spike again."
Moist is under no delusions as to what he is.

Moist used the money he stole to rebuild the PO (and for a few tithes --which he called "stealing"), but only because Gilt upped the ante when he had Gryle burn down the PO.

Moist wanted to WIN. He felt no sense of duty or civic pride or shame or regret or repayment.

When the PO burned, it became a pi$$ing contest between Moist and Gilt.
Maybe Moist wanted revenge for Anghammarad's death. Maybe he wanted to beat a con man better than he. Maybe he wanted to impress Spike. Maybe he was afraid that Vetinari's "offer" would be rescinded since there was no Post Office left.

Moist lives for the thrill. For excitement. For the idea that he might get caught out and lose.

Lots of us do, too. We go rapelling. Ride motorcycles. Play poker.


Danny B wrote:Moist is punished for his crimes, although not in a conventional manner. Vetinari makes him famous, removing his anonymity ... his primary weapon of deceit and neutering his ability to perpetuate further thefts.


Not until Making Money when Moist reveals himself to be a conman who "survived" a hanging.
Although Sacharissa's articles and Otto's pictures probably didn't help.


Danny B wrote:Vetinari puts him to work in a job that killed people better trained to deal with (physical) danger. I don't think Vetinari expects Moist to succeed or even survive.


Like a chain gang, but Mr Pump is the chain.
Moist's life as Spangler et al is already forfeit, why shouldn't Vetinari use him to challenge Gilt?

Gilt is running the Grand Trunk. But, he's also on the boards of other A-M companies.
Vetinari [i]knows[/] he will have to eliminate Gilt and his influence.
Vetinari also knows he can't simply challenge him --legally or any other way.
So, Vetinari uses Moist, who's already "dead," to stop Gilt for the sake of the city.


Danny B wrote:Moral complexity is something Terry excels at, often putting stereotypically "good" acts into the hands of bad people ... Fairy G-Mother, Vimes, Granny Weatherwax


Yes, he is.

Everyone truly loves something. Might be an ideal or an abiding passion.
Might be a person, but usually not. We manage to learn to get along without people we love.

That "love" is, generally, the line that most folks won't cross.
Vimes loves A-M. Granny loves the Ramtops. I forget what the Fairy G loves, I havent' read WA in a while.

Moist cherishes his freedom. That's why he's so angry about Mr Pump. He cherishes his "medium" face /build /looks because they allow him the freedom he loves. That's why he doesnt' want his face known --the suit & hat, ok, because they are nothing more than another persona.

Does Moist really change in this novel? No and maybe.
Only so much as he stops lying to everyone else and lies to himself that he "can give it up any time."


We're left with the Man versus Himself basis of conflict at the end, just as we had it in the beginning.

Did resolve Man V Banshee, Man V Big Corps, Man V Boris, Man V Legal System.
In the end, Moist still has to face who he is and he still doesn't want anyone to know.
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Postby poohbcarrot » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:33 pm

(Wow! Unlucky Danny B. I thought you'd put some good points across, but you got "Trished!" :lol: )

Janny honey-pie

You said that I had said the following;

Jan wrote:"but you're wrong about Vetinari being a block of wood emotionally and/or intellectually."


I never said or implied that.
That would be making Vetinari out to be like a golem!

I loved your blue highlights, but you spectacularly failed to highlight the bit I was referring to when you implied Vetinari was like a golem!

Jan wrote:Vetinari in that respect is 'Golemic' because he never loses control of his emotions


When you say I argue like a Jesuit (PMSL :lol: ), which dictionary definition of the word "Jesuit" do you mean? There are two definitions. 8)
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:09 pm

The nasty non-Christian one of course - would I insult you that much? :twisted:

There you go AGAIN! You can prove any bloody thing by quoting out of context...

again and hopefully for the last fr*ggin' time wrote: :lol: Vetinari in that respect is 'Golemic' because he never loses control of his emotions BUT he does knows how that feels even if he doesn't act on those impulses

Did I say he was a Golem as in noun there? I think not :wink: I said Golemic meaning golem-like as you very well know, which is not the same is it? He is a human being who can think like a golem but NOT let his feeling/emotions rule him. He therefore is not a golem, but is someone who knows a lot about control and uses all his 'faculties' and knowlege of human nature guide his choices and decisions.

Where to next then you bloody-minded, pernickety messianic heretic? :lol: *Does the Morpheus 'bring it on' thingie'*
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Postby poohbcarrot » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:22 pm

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Postby poohbcarrot » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:35 pm

There you go AGAIN! misquoting me

Janny Honey-Pie wrote:Did I say he was a Golem as in noun there?


No, you didn't.

Did I say you said he was a golem?

Me wrote:you implied Vetinari was like a golem!


No, I didn't.

So who said he was a golem?

"Golemic" = like a golem :wink:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:10 pm

:lol: well at least we're agreed on the grammar and have a new adjective

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Hmm? Needs leather :twisted:

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