Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

Vetinari already knew who had summoned the dragon and wanted to keep Wonse alive because he would have been useful.

He only wanted Wonse's Head...

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

What I really wonder is has Sir Terry peeked at this thread?

If he has, does he marvel at the deep understanding of his readers and their ability to ferret out his Faulknerian foreshadowing or is he laughing his arse off.

Probably a bit of both, I should think.

We can be quite silly buggers when you get right down to it.

[poohbcarrot]

He couldn't have summoned a second dragon without the assistance of magical items, which he wasn't in possession of at the time.

Wonse was close to summoning another dragon. He had that bag of rocks with holes in them... a "known" magical item and they could smell the brimstone in the air. That is why Vimes told Carrot to throw the book at him.

Oh bugger! That's what happens when I don't check before posting!

However, this then leads to the following question;

If he could summon dragons on his own, why did he need the Elucidated Brethren in the first place?

[Tonyblack]

Wonse is quite a complex character who hides behind others. He did it as a child, he did it when he worked for Vetinari and I guess he was doing it with the Bretheren as well. It's interesting that he was only interested in ruling the city from behind the king that he put on the throne. He's obviously an intelligent man, but he doesn't seem to seek obvious power.

[Jan Van Quirm]

... I'm sure that there would be a few women who would fall in love with the things (for some reason or another), but I think most of the dragon breeders would be male. As a paralel example, look at alligators. Some people here in the states keep alligators as pets, but I've never known of a woman who does. It's the same with scorpions and tarantulas. I had a scorpion when I was in high school and I've seen the spiders for sale in the pet store, but I've never met a woman who wanted to take one home. Even my mom wouldn't (she'd pick it up gently with a jar & piece of cardboard and put it outside).

I was going to say you obviously don't know that many women then, but perhaps it's more a case of you don't know that many British women Women and snakes go together like ham and eggs etc etc and I went to school with a girl who kept them and big hairy spiders as pets - we had a reptile zoo up the road from us in Kent founded and run by a very eccentric old lady and her prize exhibit was the big croc who was in Live & Let Die and nearly 'ate' Roger Moore (would that he had! ) and in legend/mythology women are invariably associated with reptiles from Eve to Andromeda - yes as lunch in the latter case but why's it always women?
And my final tongue in cheek word on the subject... STRIPPERS

Not my last serious word though, as there's a fairly well-known female natural history photographer (whose name of course I've forgotten) who actually swam in the same stretch of river or got up far too close filming giant wild crocs for over a year in the Grumeti River in the Serengeti...

Of course a large reptile fancy is far more macho and as you're making sweeping statements, let me return the favour by saying of course men would be far more likely to be attracted to large scaly things 'cos they tend to have a ridiculous obsession with the size of vicious things with teeth - However, we're not talking about ladies playing with the draco nobilis, we're talking draco vulgaris who in exceptional cases may reach a height of 36 inches and can perch on your shoulder as a fashion statement (which Sybil of course scoffs at as she wouldn't dream of using a swamp dragon as eye candy, but instead rescues the rejected dragons after the stupid wannabe femme fatale type aristos discover the drawbacks with the long talons, singed hair and corrosive crap...).

I could go on about women in medieval times who carried large vicious hawks on their wrists and rode out to hunt with them but no doubt that's a weak argument as hawks tend not to flame - it's a parody in a fantasy world and women are just as irrational as men when it comes to silly hobbies and accordingly their animal fetishes don't have to always run to small cute furry things

[poohbcarrot]

And my final tongue in cheek word on the subject... STRIPPERS

[poohbcarrot]

He's obviously an intelligent man, but he doesn't seem to seek obvious power.

But being the Supreme Grand Master of the Elucidated Brethren was purely and simply a power-thing, wasn't it?

[kakaze]

I was going to say you obviously don't know that many women then, but perhaps it's more a case of you don't know that many British women

Thanks for that! You're making me begin to doubt my own masculinity!

I think that I could say that I've known a quite large and varied number of women. Personality types have included fundamentalist Christians, tree-hugging hippies, green-haired punks with 30 ear-rings, wiccans, geneticists, globe-trotters, strippers, swingers, and even a couple of amateur porn stars.

But I admit that I've known very few British women. Most of the people that I've met have been from North & South America and from Asia.

Women and snakes go together like ham and eggs etc etc and I went to school with a girl who kept them and big hairy spiders as pets - we had a reptile zoo up the road from us in Kent founded and run by a very eccentric old lady and her prize exhibit was the big croc who was in Live & Let Die and nearly 'ate' Roger Moore

It certainly sounds more common on that side of "the pond"

in legend/mythology women are invariably associated with reptiles from Eve to Andromeda - yes as lunch in the latter case but why's it always women?

Because women are more fun to save, and more fun to watch being saved. Clark Kent isn't really Superman, he's just always hiding whenever anything dangerous happens.

And my final tongue in cheek word on the subject... STRIPPERS

I don't get it.... do British stippers use snakes? How do you swing around a brass pole, upside-down, if you've got a 3 meter boa constrictor wrapped around your neck?

I could go on about women in medieval times who carried large vicious hawks on their wrists and rode out to hunt with them but no doubt that's a weak argument as hawks tend not to flame

I've always thought that raptors were rather noble and attractive, when they're not disembowling some poor rabbit.

it's a parody in a fantasy world and women are just as irrational as men when it comes to silly hobbies and accordingly their animal fetishes don't have to always run to small cute furry things

Too true, and I think we're taking it too seriously!

If he could summon dragons on his own, why did he need the Elucidated Brethren in the first place?

Maybe it's easier if you've done it before?

Or maybe, since he used the Elucidated Brethren to imagine a dragon, he no longer needed them once there was a dragon actually flying around the city. He probably had thousands of people thinking about dragons (imagining it burning down that annoying neighbor's house) all around him.

Of course, he only needed it for as long as it would take to flame Vimes and Carrot.

[Jan Van Quirm]

I was going to say you obviously don't know that many women then, but perhaps it's more a case of you don't know that many British women

Thanks for that! You're making me begin to doubt my own masculinity!

I think that I could say that I've known a quite large and varied number of women.....
But I admit that I've known very few British women. Most of the people that I've met have been from North & South America and from Asia.

You're forgiven in that case! It's the men who get us that crazy - they're even worse of course... *stands back laughing having lit blue touchpaper*

in legend/mythology women are invariably associated with reptiles from Eve to Andromeda - yes as lunch in the latter case but why's it always women?

Because women are more fun to save, and more fun to watch being saved. Clark Kent isn't really Superman, he's just always hiding whenever anything dangerous happens.

Damn! I was trying to think why that was - but why always virgins, or is that some kind of metaphor? and you can just shut up straight off Pooh!
Mind you I always though Clark Kent was a bit of a perv but then he is an alien of course - vive la difference I always say

And my final tongue in cheek word on the subject... STRIPPERS

I don't get it.... do British stippers use snakes? How do you swing around a brass pole, upside-down, if you've got a 3 meter boa constrictor wrapped around your neck?

Ah you colonials don't know what you're missing! - boas coil around the girl (or the bloke - lets not stereotype here) in interesting places and sort of ripple too - quite a bit warmer and less unforgiving than a brass pole and then of course there's that very mobile forked tongue....

[Tonyblack]

Back to the discussion after that interesting diversion.

Wonse seems to feel that having the support of the Brethren gives his plan some sort of credence. Again it's a bit like when he was in the gang as a kid - making suggestions and moving the gang in his direction without actually taking command.

Why does he feel the need to hide behind others?

[Dotsie]

If he could summon dragons on his own, why did he need the Elucidated Brethren in the first place?

They brought him the book in the first place, and all the magical artifacts needed to make it work (notice he didn't supply any magical artifacts himself, he wouldn't want to run the risk of being caught thieving). And as you pointed out, it would be a power trip for him.

[Jan Van Quirm]

et voila - an habitual gutless power-tripping puppeteer type

[Trish]

If he could summon dragons on his own, why did he need the Elucidated Brethren in the first place?

They brought him the book in the first place, and all the magical artifacts needed to make it work.
And as you pointed out, it would be a power trip for him.

Wonse is dirty fingers at arms' length. He gets off on manipulation.

[chris.ph]

et voila - an habitual gutless power-tripping puppeteer type

that sounds like somebody i know on a different site

[poohbcarrot]