Vimes and Vetinari - friends, enemies or what?

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Vimes and Vetinari - Friends, enemies or what?

Friends
7
11%
Enemies
0
No votes
Something else - what?
59
89%
 
Total votes : 66

Postby Batty » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:46 pm

Dotsie wrote:
Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit wrote:Vimes points out to Vetinari that Policeman comes from the word Polis meaning man of the city. Vetinari then asks Vimes to think about where and how the word Politician comes from.

He doesn't answer, just leaves the point hanging.


Was this really Vimes? I could have sworn it was Carrot. It's not the sort of thing that Vimes would know.

You're right, Dotsie. P.184/5 Men At Arms. Vimes is recalling information told to him by Carrot.
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Postby Dotsie » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:11 pm

Ahh that would explain it. Thanks Batty :wink:
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Postby Who's Wee Dug » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:08 pm

And Polis is Scottish slang for police.Image
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Postby Bouncy Castle » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:47 am

Aye!
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Postby Vena Ravenhaired » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:12 pm

They are neither friends, nor enemies, more like guarded aquaintances. Neither quite approve of the other's methods, but each has a sneaking regard for the other's results.

Both are abrasive, but each has the city to take their edges off, and it keeps them separate.

Gods knows what would happen if they went head to head.

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Postby Trish » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:19 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Its a balance of aggravated respect and mutual goals which means they're possibly more like colleagues more than friends.

I think there are moral conflicts in there.

As a team they work anyway and that pleases them both



Yes to colleagues with aggravated respect and mutual goals.

No to working as a team. Vetinari cares about AM more than what he may have to do to protect it and its interests, while Vimes struggles with that kind of ugly pragmatism and usually finds a way around it, still managing to serve AM.

Vetinari (and I like his character, very much) is not bothered with moral conflicts. Vimes is, everyday. The former sees the whole picture all the time, while the latter pays attention only to the small piece of the human jigsaw in front of him.
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Postby Tonyblack » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:23 pm

Trish wrote:
Jan Van Quirm wrote:Its a balance of aggravated respect and mutual goals which means they're possibly more like colleagues more than friends.

I think there are moral conflicts in there.

As a team they work anyway and that pleases them both



Yes to colleagues with aggravated respect and mutual goals.

No to working as a team. Vetinari cares about AM more than what he may have to do to protect it and its interests, while Vimes struggles with that kind of ugly pragmatism and usually finds a way around it, still managing to serve AM.

Vetinari (and I like his character, very much) is not bothered with moral conflicts. Vimes is, everyday. The former sees the whole picture all the time, while the latter pays attention only to the small piece of the human jigsaw in front of him.
Sort of like the Brain and the Heart. :)
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:35 pm

and Vetinari has no 'heart' of course - but the brain and heart need each other to work (and by heart needing the brain I mean the hypothalamus)so it's conscious v unconsious and passionate v dispassionate teamwork...

or even good cop bad cop? :lol: But which is which? :twisted:
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Postby Omnia » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:21 pm

Vetinari and Vimes? Friends? No! And Tony (OP) ~ I'm reading my companion when I get home tonight, I can't believe it says that :lol:

I agree with what Jan wrote on the first page, and with what msspanners says about Vetinari creating Vimes. Vetinari shaped Vimes character ~ think of G! G!, Men at Arms and Feet of Clay. in Feet of Clay, Vetinari knew the answer but he made Vimes work at it and come to the same conclusions himself.

As Vimes has grown into his respected role of later books he's earnt Vetinari's respect because to a large extent he has become a major political player within the city and beyond (due to the way he wields his authority and soemtimes bends it a little to get his man.)

I don't think there is room for like or actual friendship there though.

And I've just finished re-reading Going Postal ~ Vetinari has a similar manipulative relationship with Moist, but I also think there is perhaps a bit of genuine admiration there for Moists ability to manipulate people.
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Postby swreader » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:58 am

Omnia-- not only does the 2004 Gollancraz edition of the Discworld Companion (which is the copy I have) make that remarkable and totally incorrect statement, but in the process of trying to cross check some things, I've found quite a number of other fascinating items (look at what appears to be the Watch Badge -- p.424 in the middle of the Vetinari discussion--quite different from the "former" badge described in the City Watch entry: p. 438). Since the Companion is theoretically by Terry Pratchett and Stephen Briggs, but actually by Briggs, and since Briggs makes up all sorts of history never mentioned by Pratchett, it seems possible that we can disregard this statement completely.

As to the relationship between Vimes & Vetinari--there is no single answer to this question because the relationship changes over time. When the reader first meets Vetinari & Vimes in GG, apparently Vetinari is vaguely aware of the 3 member (growing to 4 with the addition of Carrot) Night Watch. But in the course of the novel, the relationship changes--because Vimes & Vetinari become much more closely associated (sharing a prison cell) and because Vimes saves Vetinari's life (for the first time).

Actually, as we learn in Night Watch, young Havelock knew the Duke when he was transformed temporarily into Sgt. at Arms John Keel--and recognized then the intelligence and command ability that person possess, though Vetinari had no idea who Vimes really was. In fact, he suggests to his Aunt that she may want Keel removed as possible threat to the change of Patricians she is fomenting. Vetinari does not put the John Keel he knew 30 years before together with the Duke he now knows well until the end of Nightwatch. And by that time the realtionship between these two Guardians of the City has changed and grown from that seen in Guards! Guards!

Initially, Vetinari seems to have a kind of grudging respect for Vimes (at least by the end of the book). But Vetinari opperates on the theory that Vimes is (like everyone and everything else in the City)is nothing but a pawn or a part of a vast machine which he,as Patrician, must keep in balance. That requires him to take perverse actions, such as forbidding Vimes to investigate the murders (by the gun or whoever has it at the time) in MAA, which Vetinari does to make sure that Vimes does in fact investigate. Apparently their relationship at this point is one marked by distrust and lack of real knowledge.

By the time we reach Thud!, the most recent purely Watch book, the relationship is essentially one of mutual respect with the knowledge that each is devoted to the city, and each knows pretty much how to manipulate the other. As Jan and several others have said--they are colleagues.

I would go further, though, and say that while Vimes and Vetnari's relationship at that point is not friendship, it is probably as close to a friendship with another man as either of them is capable of.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:45 am

I have to correct you there Sharlene. :) The illustration on page 424 is actually Sir Samuel Vimes' Coat-of-Arms - although I don't know what it's doing on that particular page under the heading of Vetinari. The other badge in the 'Watch' section seems to be the ornate shield as produced by King Veltrick I for the then Royal City Watch. Veltrick III on the other hand commissioned a much plainer copper badge:
It was he who commissioned the striking of the first Watch badge, a plain disc or shield of copper (representing the shield which watchmen had originally carried). This disc was stamped with AMCW (for 'Ankh-Morpork City Watch') and the officer's number. These badges were in common use bu the City Night Watch until recently, although only a handful have survived the intervening years. Commander Vimes certainly clings to his, which is now the only known example outside the Patrician's personal museum in the Palace.
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Postby chris.ph » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:06 pm

your brave correcting your misses tony, saying that she is 5000 miles away and cant get at you :lol: :lol:
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Postby Who's Wee Dug » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:32 pm

And she will have forgotten by the time Tony goes back. Image
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Postby Omnia » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:14 pm

Yes, I re-read The New Discworld Companion (2003) and the rather bold statement regarding Vimes and Vetinari's relationship :lol:

I don't think they've ever really been enemies but there's no true pal-friendship there. Colleagues is a better way than friends to describe their relationship
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Postby elgohim » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:39 am

As swreader points out, their relationship has changed with time. It is evident that Vimes by now (which is when?) knows very well what the Patrician is doing, how he tries to manipulate him and what are the real meanings behind some orders.

Note then how often (especially in the end of an episode) Vimes reports to Vetinari some very diluted version of what has happened, keeping an extreme straight face, just to keep his space of action as wide as possible - and note also that Vetinare lets him do that, well aware of the realities!

Whatever the humble beginnings, now their relationship cannot be charaterized as anything but mutual respect. As men of the world they even set up and enjoy their little skirmishes, knowing that they have very few means to actually convey that respect, other than this kind of roleplaying.
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