Moving Pictures Discussion **Spoilers**

[Tonyblack]

As you mentioned Elves, Jan. I think MP is Terry's first attempt to deal with the subject of 'glamour' - a subject he manages to investigate a lot more and successfully in Lords and Ladies.

[raptornx01]

I think he did run out of uses for the TFTDD. They are weak, have no personalities of their own. aren't really evil. and require a vessel or a gateway to even enter our world. and then all they care about is magic really. Their entrance would have to be contrived every time, and he had already done it a few times. Though MP was the largest scale invasion.

[LilMaibe]

I know I asked this before, but either the majority of people is ognoring me or it plain drowned. If you read this: Check my response on the first page, that question is really bugging me.

[raptornx01]

I know I asked this before, but either the majority of people is ognoring me or it plain drowned. If you read this: Check my response on the first page, that question is really bugging me.

My impression was its all one thing. all of it came from one source. the thing the guardian was holding back. When the ceremonies the watchers were doing stopped after the last one died it all started to leak out. a little bit at first, then more and more as the door opened wider.

[LilMaibe]

Thanks.
Though... we have death claim whatever turned into the 50-feet-Ginger and after that we get 'holy wood dreams' again. Does that mean the spirit is back and might awaken again or...?

[raptornx01]

It wasn't killed or permanently disposed of. i think ? is right. seemed like the traditional "The End?" tag. Which fits with the subject matter

[LilMaibe]

true.
But you have to admit, the idea of things from the dungeon dimension being able to latch onto being of great thaumaturgical value has its interesting aspects

[raisindot]

Having mentioned the Dungeon Dimensions, for me this is the last really meaningful time that they feature in a DW book (I don't really count Eric as it's more to do with demonology ), after this Terry's excursions into magical nemesis gets more focussed on Dragons and Elves et al for a better class of antagonist. Do you think this is because he ran out steam for trans-dimensional monsters in this book?

Both Guards! Guards! and Eric came out before MP, so, yes, you're right that the DD make their swan song here, even though he was introducing dragons during this period.

But I don't think Pterry ran out of steam with the DD idea, which was never particularly interesting in itself. I think that after MP he consciously or subconsiously decided to move forward from the "roundworld parody" approach of most of the early books into much deeper and more complex narrative territory. Look at what immediately followed--Reaper Man, Witches Abroad, and (the real turning point) Small Gods, each of which featuring far more interesting ideas. The dogmatic dungeons of Omnia and Alison Weatherwax's mirror universe hold far more compelling terrors...

[Tonyblack]

So . . .

Anyone care to name any of the movies, or movie references used in the book?

I'll start off with The Seventh Seal, the Swedish film by Ingmar Bergman, which has a scene of Death standing on a beach.

[raptornx01]

Thats also the movie where Death is famously challenged to a game of chess, is it not?

[Jan Van Quirm]

Having mentioned the Dungeon Dimensions, for me this is the last really meaningful time that they feature in a DW book (I don't really count Eric as it's more to do with demonology ), after this Terry's excursions into magical nemesis gets more focussed on Dragons and Elves et al for a better class of antagonist. Do you think this is because he ran out steam for trans-dimensional monsters in this book?

Both Guards! Guards! and Eric came out before MP, so, yes, you're right that the DD make their swan song here, even though he was introducing dragons during this period.

But I don't think Pterry ran out of steam with the DD idea, which was never particularly interesting in itself. I think that after MP he consciously or subconsiously decided to move forward from the "roundworld parody" approach of most of the early books into much deeper and more complex narrative territory. Look at what immediately followed--Reaper Man, Witches Abroad, and (the real turning point) Small Gods, each of which featuring far more interesting ideas. The dogmatic dungeons of Omnia and Alison Weatherwax's mirror universe hold far more compelling terrors...

Surely the Roundworld parodies became even stronger? - from Wyrd Sisters onwards Terry deliberately chooses facets of Roundworld culture unconnected with fantasy genres (which are parodied to death in the early books and of course DO run out of steam as Discworld acquires it's own 'gravitas' ). In Wyrd Sisters it's theatre/Shakespearean themes and in Soul Music rock and roll; Small Gods jihad/theocracies and police drama for the Watch series of course.

I like the whole series of silent movie piss-takes especially with the screen idol Rudolph Valentino and 'it' girl Theda Bara stereotypes being played for all they're worth moving into Errol Flynn and Clark Gable, Jean Harlow and Vivien Leigh with Ginger gradually getting less 'langourous' and more styled and hyped as they went as they get into talkies. I also quite like how Terry turns the silver screen on its head to some extent since colour comes quite early on (I think - I actually haven't had time to reread the book yet)?

[Tonyblack]

Thats also the movie where Death is famously challenged to a game of chess, is it not?

That's the one.

[raptornx01]

Having mentioned the Dungeon Dimensions, for me this is the last really meaningful time that they feature in a DW book (I don't really count Eric as it's more to do with demonology ), after this Terry's excursions into magical nemesis gets more focussed on Dragons and Elves et al for a better class of antagonist. Do you think this is because he ran out steam for trans-dimensional monsters in this book?

Both Guards! Guards! and Eric came out before MP, so, yes, you're right that the DD make their swan song here, even though he was introducing dragons during this period.

But I don't think Pterry ran out of steam with the DD idea, which was never particularly interesting in itself. I think that after MP he consciously or subconsiously decided to move forward from the "roundworld parody" approach of most of the early books into much deeper and more complex narrative territory. Look at what immediately followed--Reaper Man, Witches Abroad, and (the real turning point) Small Gods, each of which featuring far more interesting ideas. The dogmatic dungeons of Omnia and Alison Weatherwax's mirror universe hold far more compelling terrors...

Surely the Roundworld parodies became even stronger? - from Wyrd Sisters onwards Terry deliberately chooses facets of Roundworld culture unconnected with fantasy genres (which are parodied to death in the early books and of course DO run out of steam as Discworld acquires it's own 'gravitas' ). In Wyrd Sisters it's theatre/Shakespearean themes and in Soul Music rock and roll; Small Gods jihad/theocracies and police drama for the Watch series of course.

I like the whole series of silent movie piss-takes especially with the screen idol Rudolph Valentino and 'it' girl Theda Bara stereotypes being played for all they're worth moving into Errol Flynn and Clark Gable, Jean Harlow and Vivien Leigh with Ginger gradually getting less 'langourous' and more styled and hyped as they went as they get into talkies. I also quite like how Terry turns the silver screen on its head to some extent since colour comes quite early on (I think - I actually haven't had time to reread the book yet)?

That happened with soul music as well. its focus was rock but overall they kinda of ran through the whole of modern music history, and rather quickly. starting with folk and moving through the styles (and having other genres poping up like soul, r&b and rap with the dwarfs and metal with that side band that couldn't decide on a name). they played with that alot in the animated series. each song changing styles till it got to "The Messenger" which is the most modern style (at that point).

only with MP he didn't really move past the golden age of hollywood. unless you consider the end, after the creatures come out of the screen, as representing big budget summer spectacle films that started in the 70's.

[=Tamar]

My impression was its all one thing. all of it came from one source. the thing the guardian was holding back. When the ceremonies the watchers were doing stopped after the last one died it all started to leak out. a little bit at first, then more and more as the door opened wider.

I'm not sure it's all the same thing. First came the wild idea, the idea of the clicks. Then the rest of the energy beings came through, and there was more than one shape behind that screen. They were probably similar, all DD monsters, but the forms were given them by the people who made the clicks their own. The monster had to obey the magic of the clicks, too. What if they had only continued to make little educational filmstrips? Would there have been a monstrous living potter's wheel?

The most obvious film reference that hasn't been mentioned yet is the sequence of Mack Sennet's Keystone Kops episodes, complete with the last one chasing behind the overloaded car.

[raptornx01]

I'm not sure it's all the same thing. First came the wild idea, the idea of the clicks. Then the rest of the energy beings came through, and there was more than one shape behind that screen. They were probably similar, all DD monsters, but the forms were given them by the people who made the clicks their own. The monster had to obey the magic of the clicks, too. What if they had only continued to make little educational filmstrips? Would there have been a monstrous living potter's wheel?

I don't consider the TFTDD to be a part of it. they were a side effect. They just took advantage of an opportunity that was presented. sure the fact of the click magic dictated their form, as it was that that gave them a portal to the disc, but they weren't a part OF that magic.

What she was saying, at least it seemed that way to me, was there may have been more then one part of the click magic. IE, the part giving people ideas, and the part that got released when the door finally opened, were two different things. both still click magic, but still two different "spirits of holy wood"