Wyrd Sisters

[Lady Vetinari]

I just wanted to start a topic on the book that got me onto the Pratchett universe.

Debate: Did Weatherwax know that Magrat didn't really want to be a Witch? Does she respect other Witches private thoughts as she doesn't seem to get inside their heads or is it impossible for her to get into Witches heads as they may have a mental block?

All these points and so much more would be interesting to discuss.

[Tonyblack]

I think that Magrat did want to be a witch. She just wants to be one on her own terms. I see Granny's hostility to her as a sort of sort of test. Granny is using Headology on her to make her either give up or fight for what she believes in.

I happen to have a great deal of respect for Magrat in the fact that she does continue to be a witch in her own way despite Granny's pressure. And as we see in some of the later books - Magrat is actually quite a powerful witch. Her biggest handicap is herself.

[Jan Van Quirm]

She certainly does do more 'mainstream' magic than the other two permanent members of the coven - I had shivers down the spine when she shattered that great wooden door (in Lords and Ladies was it?) at the Castle. I also think she's the most passionate in an intellectual sense as well as emotionally, certainly when she's backed into a corner and now she's go a family which was the making of her of course.

Other people may have noticed this but with the rumoured return of Esk do you think Terry's actually going for a 2 coven Lancre now? I really like Agnes (& Perdita of course ) and with Tiffany and Esk returning that makes 2x3 doesn't it?

[Tonyblack]

Esk is a Lancrastian girl so it's conceivable that she's just home to visit when she meets Tiffany. But Esk is a wizard not a witch as Granny's attempts at training her in Equal Rites proved. And Tiffany will go back to the Chalk when she gets the chance - I have no doubt about that.

[Lady Vetinari]

Wasn't Annagramma a Witch that preferred the Wizard style of magic, so Esk could come back for her and not for Tiffany.

Don't get me wrong I have an immense love for Magrat, I feel sorry for her, and she has proved that you don't have to be a princess to be a Queen, Walt Disney heroine she ain't! Though I have nothing against Walt Disney heroines, but I can't imagine the Walt Disney corporation taking too kindly to someone like Magrat in their works...

Sorry, a bit of track there.

To whoever asked the question, it was Wyrd Sisters where she did that nifty trick with the door, it was to save Nanny Ogg from the evil clutches of Lord and Lady Felmet. She ended up being shown the implements by the ghost of Verence and it was Lord Felmet that was being tortured by his victim, not Nanny Ogg.

Granny W praised her for the work but said she would have probed the stones instead.

[Tonyblack]

It was actually Mrs Earwig who is more interested in wizardly type of magic. Annagramma was her trainee pupil, but as events in Wintersmith turned out, Annagramma seems to be settling down as a more traditional witch with some help from Boffo.

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

I had shivers down the spine when she shattered that great wooden door (in Lords and Ladies was it?) at the Castle.

That was in Wyrd Sisters, as aforementioned while rescuing Nanny Ogg from the castle.

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

BOFFO! BOFFO! BOFFO!

And loved Tiffany's realization that Annagramma actually ordered the Genuine Dangling Booger too (made of glass)

[baruch menachem]

I just started Witches Abroad. It seems Magrat is Terry's way of making an interesting point, that self actualization is not achieved through self absorption. Despite the fact that she is best learned and most intelligent of the trio, she is also the greatest idiot (as far as I have got) because there is too much "me me me" in her makeup.

Anyway, it seems that Magrat makes her greatest progress in makeing a better personality for herself when she is doing for others.

A Terry Heroine is kind of startling in literary terms because she never looks for rescue. Not that she isn't in tough places now and then. A Terry Heroine is never one who relies on anybody, but is instead someone everybody can rely on. Susan, Tiffany and Polly are very similar in this regard.

I think, by drawing a line between Susan and Magrat, we can get a pretty good understanding of what Lynn Practchett is like.

[Dotsie]

I think I disagree with just about everything you've said there

But, if you draw a line between Susan (very tough) & Magrat (a wet lettuce), don't you get just about every woman?

[Jan Van Quirm]

Though largely agreeing with you, I wouldn't say that Magrat was a wet hen so much any more Dotsie?

Since she's got married and had a little heir anyway. Her main trouble is lack of confidence in herself despite her academic leanings and with Granny and Nanny more than making up for her in that department, we actually get a very sympathetic and extremely 'normal' female character, who's mostly quiet and thoughtful and respectful of other's opinions - although her half-hearted rebellions usually take a petulant turn so she's not really up to challenging the other witches' judgment - although interestingly it's Nanny who normally roots for her (I think a young Nanny might not have been quite so full on, though obviously very, very sexy ).

It's the age card I think - we all know cocksure determined 'my way or the highway' older ladies - so Magrat's really the 'straight' witch who's knowledgeable but not yet comfortable with her armoury of skills - womanly as well as witchy. Having a family now though is naturally the 'making' of her and she's much more proactive where her husband and child are concerned. She's finding her feet at last and of course she's now found the Queen Ynci aspect of her character too...

[Perdita X]

RE Magrat - I agree - she's maturing now - her family gives her focus and thats where her power comes from.

just re-read Lords and Ladies for the "n"th time - Summer always makes me want to read the witch books - missed Maskerade out this time though and have moved straight onto Carpe Jugulum.

The comment that Agnes makes in Carpe jugulum is very accurate - I cant remember it verbatum - but it's along the lines of Magrat getting the label "mother" and automatically giving everyone else a little bit of the label "child" - Mothers aren't wet, they're only slightly damp.

I have to say that Magrat feels "really real" to me and holds up a mirror to various peculiarly female foibles (oh he's good that Terry!) - I have personally behaved like her i.e. been soppy, tried to learn about the world out of books, got bossy when had babies, tried to achieve spiritual enlightenment by reading (Lobsang Dibbler style) philosophy and trying to be windswept and interesting and ethereally beautiful despite non-compatible genetics. So much so That I love and am annoyed by her in equal measure.

Would like to be more like Susan personally - but hey ho

[Dotsie]

Though largely agreeing with you, I wouldn't say that Magrat was a wet hen so much any more Dotsie?

I completely agree But in terms of Witches Abroad only, she still wasn't able to stand up for herself. Now she's a mum, she doesn't get pushed around any more (much). She's certainly no wet hen.

Going back to the start of the witches though, I think the Granny of Equal Rites was all three witches rolled into one - she makes herbal potions, & discusses sensitive "marital issues" with women. When he split them up into separate characters, Terry could really let go with the extremes of their behaviour, & they're much more likable as a result (I didn't really like the ER Granny - too wishy-washy)

[Jan Van Quirm]

Granny's certainly a little wyrd in ER. She's not too well-formed in there, but there's flashes of the future Granny

I particularly like how Terry's working out the dangers and principles of Borrowing in there which I think he went on to develop in Lord's and Ladies most notably (the swarm) - the thing with getting more and more like the mind you've borrowed anyway

Interesting about you saying that Granny's got aspects of all the coven constituents in ER - I think Terry's actually referred to that in one of the later books where he says something like Granny could be 'a coven all on her own' as she qualified well in the Maiden and Hag stakes and most men in Lancre regarded her as the 'other sort' of Mother

I thought the town witch in ER (somebody Goatskin?) was a little like Nanny actually but obviously not quite as characterful!

[Tonyblack]

Hilta Goatfounder. And yes, I can certainly see aspects of Nanny there.

By the way - did Granny ever return her broom?