Vetinari

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Re: Vetinari

Postby alicenanjing » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:13 pm

Well, if Nutt was so perfect, why did he run away to mommy (I mean Lady Margolotta) as soon as he found out who he was? His friends had to rush after him and reassure him that it's all right, not everyone hates him, look, we love you! Otherwise he'd have given up everything and let his team down.
And I've been meaning to point out something else, as well. Someone said that Ponder Stibbons is ridiculed, in UA, because when Nutt comes back we are told that Ponder was incapable of training the team in Nutt's absence. That's not true, that's totally in character for Ponder Stibbons. He's a computer geek, not a jock. In previous books he has been introduced as someone who will happily spend a night sitting at the keyboard with a cold pizza by his side and a few other colleagues napping with their heads on the table around him. Sports are not his world. When he must move a ball from point A to point B, he'll do it by using Hex, not his feet, and it would be completely beyond him to direct a whole team of would-be athletes. He's cerebral, not physical, and that does not make him ridiculous at all, and neither does that make him an idiot.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:02 pm

The bit with Margolotta was...well...padding and Exposition. (I am squeazy to re-read that part, but am willing to do for a better analysis)
The bit with Ponder...yes, that was I again. And I stand to my view that he is ridiculed. It's the way the scene runs. If he would have said that he couldn't train them because of the above, or even because of all his other jobs, no problem.
It's the whole -he couldn't do so because he couldn't remember all the things the orc came up with- that bugs me so much. (and as i have discovered I am not alone with that)
It implies that Ponder can't even tell them -just do what you did the last few days- or something along the lines.
And in addition(and this is from a review I read on amazon.co.uk or com, will try to find it again):
(paraphrased) Stibbons's reasons for being unable to train the team rid [the orc] of all reponsibilty for the training-gone-wrong, as the training couldn't take place of faulty memory, not because of the person to jump in being too busy elsewise which was known to [the orc]

This is exactly what bugs me about that bit. That the story (to me) doesn't even allow the orc to make a mistake and always has him in the right.

EDIT: I hope my thoughts were in order and comprehensible here. I tend to get lost on the way.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby alicenanjing » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:10 pm

Well, I'll have to go home and take the book out and read the Ponder bit again. But, if I remember correctly: Ponder did not get involved at all in the training of the team, he delegated the whole thing to Nutt, when the team was first formed. So he had next to no experience at all when, in the absence of Nutt, he had to take over the training. And, even if he is younger, more practical and into new and modern things, first and foremost, he is a wizard and, as such, thinks that walking down the stairs to the dining room constitutes healthy, invigorating exercise and just the thing to work up an appetite. The only person remotely into sports in that university is Ridcully, and I suspect that's where the "running on the spot" idea came from - Ponder must have seen him doing that someday (when the character Ridcully was first introduced, we were told that he was in the habit of jogging in the morning, as well as shooting every blessed thing that ventured within range) and thought, as a complete outsider might, that this must be sports, sure enough.
As for the way the scene runs - well, it's Pratchett! We expect a belly laugh now and again! We hope and wait for it, and we laugh at the expense of most of the characters - Ridcully, the Dean, the Senior Wrangler, Macarona, that Music Professor, whatshisname, almost everyone from the University, as a matter of fact. It doesn't mean that we don't respect them. Why should Ponder be an exception? I certainly have respect for Ridcully, and - you remember in Night Watch, I think it was, a scene where Ridcully gets blown out of his building when in his bath, and lands outside still in the bathtub, wearing nothing but his hat, and there are all those people present, and he stands up, not realizing that he is naked, and refuses to listen when someone points out this fact, declaring that if a wizard has his hat on, that is all the attire he needs? Getting ridiculed is the lot of a Pratchett character. It's all in good fun.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby alicenanjing » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:31 am

Yep, read the Ponder bit again. It's pretty much as I remembered. Besides, I see that Ponder has quite a lengthy conversation with Nutt and his friends, in which he does not seem stupid or ridiculous at all, just worried and concerned, and it isn't until he comes to the bit about training the team that he comes across as out of his depth and baffled, BECAUSE he doesn't "get" sports at all. At least, that's how it all feels to me.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby LilMaibe » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:26 pm

It has a sour taste to me that it had to be -because he can't remember what the orc comes up with- instead of -he has other things to do- or -he just has no idea of sports-. As said, it feels as if that answer was picked to portray Ponder as someone without any bit of imagination. But YMMV, of course :)
(If you want a full explanation, PM me :) ))
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Re: Vetinari

Postby cabbagehead » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:25 am

alicenanjing, yes Ridcully was always into sports. He was a member of a rowing team in his younger years and a hunter during the 40+ years he was in the mountains. The Librarian is also physically fit, but he is more into acrobatics than running about.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby LilMaibe » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:44 am

cabbagehead wrote:alicenanjing, yes Ridcully was always into sports. He was a member of a rowing team in his younger years and a hunter during the 40+ years he was in the mountains. The Librarian is also physically fit, but he is more into acrobatics than running about.


Was Ridcully actually in the mountains in the UA timeline? Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the text get rid of the whole -caring for the family's estate-? :?
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Re: Vetinari

Postby alicenanjing » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:58 am

Just a line I came across yesterday, in Reaper Man, on wizards and sports:
" ‘You exorcise them, I think.’
‘What? Jumpin’ up and down, runnin’ on the spot, that kind of thing?’ " :lol:
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Re: Vetinari

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:03 am

Still not really an excuse as to why Ponder can't remember things he saw. He has been there during the training, if not the whole time (why have him play if he has no idea of sports, left alone never joined the training actively is another question, but I digress)
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Re: Vetinari

Postby Tonyblack » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:10 am

LilMaibe wrote:Still not really an excuse as to why Ponder can't remember things he saw. He has been there during the training, if not the whole time (why have him play if he has no idea of sports, left alone never joined the training actively is another question, but I digress)

Speaking as someone with no interest in sport - especially when I was in school - having no interest in sport is no reason for them to make you do them.

Also by this stage, Ponder is pretty much running everything in the university, mainly because no one else is interested and they tend to push things Ponder's way because he gets things done. He's pretty much a victim of his own efficiency in getting involved in this one.

It's a while since I read the book, but didn't Ponder bring the whole subject up in the first place?
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
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Re: Vetinari

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:18 am

Tonyblack wrote:
It's a while since I read the book, but didn't Ponder bring the whole subject up in the first place?


Yep, and it's completely out of nowhere. I mentioned it before, but it felt as if it's just there to portray Ponder in a bad light and have the orc shine. Views differ, though

(On a sidenote here: Is Pepe some sort of psychic assassin? or does he travel, as snappy review like to put it -travlling by plotholes- to appear out of nowhere?)
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Re: Vetinari

Postby ShaunChattey » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:23 pm

Isn't Vetinari A ?Vampire.

*I feel like im going to be beat with a stick for saying this.... it's the impression I got of Vetinari!

This was made ambiguous at times, rumor an suggestion but maybe I just haven't soaked up the whole Vetinari yet, I need to read some of the books again I think!
If he is a Vampire.... he will never have to leave us!

I did like how someone mentioned a republic/city state though. It does seem to me that the merchants guild, the thieves guild and all the other guilds have alot of political power at certain times. I think though that it is the Watch that is more likely, in several books I think the watch have overthrown a leader, in the history of A-M the same has happened and several times has Vetinari himself made some sort of deal or had a discussion with Vimes about the watch and its power.

Seems to me the watch would probably set up a transitional government, and never leave.

But to be fair, this is the thinking of a history student, I think Pratchett is far more creative than real life :mrgreen:
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Re: Vetinari

Postby cabbagehead » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:13 pm

Was Ridcully actually in the mountains in the UA timeline? Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the text get rid of the whole -caring for the family's estate-?


No. Ridcully grew up in the city, but he had relatives with an estate in the mountains. Just like Ponder was a city boy with an uncle who was a farmer. I initially thought UA contradicts Moving Pictures wrt Ridcully's background, but from Lords and Ladies it seems that when he visited Lancre as a young wizard-in-training he had not been in the mountains before.
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Re: Vetinari

Postby swanage » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:29 pm

Ok, so Vetinari stays (hooray!) - but how did he get there in the first place? It's a long way from 'Dogbotherer' at the Guild to Patrician at the Palace. Do tell!
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Re: Vetinari

Postby Tonyblack » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:11 pm

Welcome swanage! :D

I don't think we know how he got the job. It's a bit of a gap in the storyline. :think:
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