Vetinari

[Fortune Clutterbuck]

'Ave you never 'eard of ellycushon lessons?


And do you think the likes of Rust are really impressed by exacting moral standards etc - obviously we are but as to the Selachiis and kin I suspect they would not have any more respect for Vimes than for Harry King - possibly less as of all values they would probably most admire the quality of ruthlessness - which is probably more evident in Harry than Sam.

Having said which Vimes has married into the aristocracy which must be a big bonus point in favour of any offspring ...

[alicenanjing]

Well, they may not be impressed by moral standards, but Vimes has managed to earn the respect and confidence of Diamond King of the trolls, the Low King of the dwarves, Lady Margolotta and other powers that be, and all that by himself, because of what he did and what he was, not because of his wife's influence. That counts for something, even for aristocrats. And that's something Harry King and his type cannot do.

[Fortune Clutterbuck]

I think we can all agree that if political leadership was gained through personal merit and integrity Sam Vimes would be at the top of the list, sadly if roundworld is anything to go by anyway, it is more likely to be gained through influential connections (however made or inherited) or ruthless manipulation.

Do you not also think that the most admirable qualities Vimes possesses may prove to be a handicap in running the city - as Carrot says "Personal isn't the same as important"

[alicenanjing]

Of course, and that's one reason I never envisaged Sam Vimes as the next Patrician. And that's not the only thing. He's a cop, not a diplomat. The words "I've got you bang to rights and no mistake"are never far from his lips. He would never be able to play the quid pro quo game, to let a past crime or injustice slide for the sake of preventing crimes in the future. All his instincts would rebel and cry for vengeance.
Besides, if he's roughly the same age as Vetinari, he wouldn't have much time to offer as a successor. We need someone younger, we don't want to have to make the same hard choices in a couple of years' time, right?

[cabbagehead]

Vetinari's age: His young version was about 18 in Nightwatch (final year of school), he was in his early 50s in Thud!, is in his mid-to-late 50s by the time of Snuff. Vimes is close to his age, and showing signs of aging himself, so I don't see him as a viable replacement. Vetinari was probably in his early 20s when he became Patrician assuming he was the Patrician celebrating the 10th year of his ascendancy in Mort, but then he had his aunt working behind the scenes. Maybe if *he* decides he wants Young Sam as his heir he can also arrange for him to have the right kind of background and support, because we know he has influence on Sybil. This does mean he has to stick around as Patrician well into his 70s. People who are in view now and can be prepared for the task in shorter time would be Moist or maybe William. Harry King is also interesting, but I think he is a bit too old, considering he has been taking the piss since the 1960s and his daughter was getting married in The Truth already. Other options would be less visible (or not even visible) characters - perhaps a head of one of the many new guilds that formed under Vetinari's regime.

[nom*]

i think that in the unlikely event that Vetinari would die/need to be replaced, terry would create a totally new character not use an existing one. I feel that none of the candidates would be very good as ruler of AM, because they so suit the roles that they are in now.
Having said that, characters in discworld are starting to age, lord Rust in snuff was ageing and his son was being set up as his replacement, i guess it depends on how many more novels there are going to be.

I can't ever see Vetinari stepping aside though, i heard about this world leader that suffered a stroke and could not do the job anymore, but instead of telling him he had been replaced, a team of people were employed to keep him in a room and give him paperwork to sign and pretend he was still in charge. If Vetinari does need to be replaced for health/ageing reasons id like to think this would be a good way to do it, rather than retiring him against his will and leaving him with nothing to do.

[Fortune Clutterbuck]

Vetinari's age: His young version was about 18 in Nightwatch (final year of school), he was in his early 50s in Thud!, is in his mid-to-late 50s by the time of Snuff. Vimes is close to his age, and showing signs of aging himself, so I don't see him as a viable replacement. Vetinari was probably in his early 20s when he became Patrician assuming he was the Patrician celebrating the 10th year of his ascendancy in Mort, but then he had his aunt working behind the scenes. Maybe if *he* decides he wants Young Sam as his heir he can also arrange for him to have the right kind of background and support, because we know he has influence on Sybil. This does mean he has to stick around as Patrician well into his 70s. People who are in view now and can be prepared for the task in shorter time would be Moist or maybe William. Harry King is also interesting, but I think he is a bit too old, considering he has been taking the piss since the 1960s and his daughter was getting married in The Truth already. Other options would be less visible (or not even visible) characters - perhaps a head of one of the many new guilds that formed under Vetinari's regime.

Agreed. I think I have been confusing this thread with another where I was arguing the case for Harry King's offspring
My apologies

[madam]

I don't think any human gets to be old enough to see his offspring by a vampire become adult. With the lifespans they've got, they must have childhoods that last for a century or so. Spending sixty years as a teenager - now that's an idea for a horror movie.

id imagine a half-vampires rate of aging would proboboly depend on the balance of vampire/human genetics they had swimming around their dna though and what with.... actually to cut a long and boring ramble short im just going to purport my crazy thoery de jour that Moist is Vetinari and Margo's unwitting bastard son and have done with it

[Fortune Clutterbuck]

Har!

I might be persuaded to that

[cabbagehead]

I can't ever see Vetinari stepping aside though, i heard about this world leader that suffered a stroke and could not do the job anymore, but instead of telling him he had been replaced, a team of people were employed to keep him in a room and give him paperwork to sign and pretend he was still in charge. If Vetinari does need to be replaced for health/ageing reasons id like to think this would be a good way to do it, rather than retiring him against his will and leaving him with nothing to do.

Vetinari loves the city. If he left the scene without arranging for transition of power too much would break down and that would harm the city, be bad for business and also reflect badly on Vetinari and besmirch his memory. So I think he has some scheme going on to manipulate the people who will be selecting the next Patrician to choose someone he considers suitable. Someone who understands how the city works, who loves the city and seeks its success above personal gain.

[Fortune Clutterbuck]

I have to disagree as to motive - IMHO Vetinari is just in it for the love of the game - however that is not to say that the game does not include making provision for a successor who will continue the good work

[Oberon]

As has already been mentioned I can't see Sir Terry killing off such a marvelous character and since Vetinari is probably in his mid to late fifties the problem is not likely to come up for some time (especially since the Assasins Guild won't accept a contract on him). Of course if Havelock was worried about encroaching mortality I'm sure Lady Margolotta would be delighted to "turn" her dear friend. Besides he's just the sort of personality to go the zombie route (if only to annoy the hell out of his rivals).

If you do want the name of a possible successor may I suggest Grace Speaker, the pet shop owner who The Patrician suspects is secretly the compiler of the Ankh-Morpork Times crossword. As Vetinary himself suggested in "SNUFF" a woman of her intelligence is unlikley to remain satisfied with running a pet shop and has consequently placed her under observation.

[Ziriath]

There's his Great Project (dunno how it's called in the original version) in the underground of Ankh-Morpork (Is something about it written in Snuff? I haven't read it yet. Maybe it's going to be subway?). He surely does not want to die, until The Project is finished. If he dies, I think he would become a vampire- cos zombies suffer from losing body parts and from various parasites, which fact he would find quite disgusting. When he already looks like a vampire, the actual BEING a vampire is the only last step.

[Fortune Clutterbuck]

Like the Grace Speaker idea (could she be Vetinari's secret sister?) ... Vetinari as vampire would be interesting too with the added bonus that probably nobody would notice

[Tonyblack]

There's his Great Project (dunno how it's called in the original version) in the underground of Ankh-Morpork (Is something about it written in Snuff? I haven't read it yet. Maybe it's going to be subway?). He surely does not want to die, until The Project is finished. If he dies, I think he would become a vampire- cos zombies suffer from losing body parts and from various parasites, which fact he would find quite disgusting. When he already looks like a vampire, the actual BEING a vampire is the only last step.

Love the Star Trek avatar, Ziranth! That ended up as one of the silliest episodes ever.

The 'underground' idea was sort of hinted at in Thud! but no mention of it has been made since. One of the mine signs described sounded a bit like a London Underground sign and, of course, there were all those tunnels dug by the dwarfs and the mechanisms that could have operated such a system.

Maybe we'll hear more of it again.