Feet of Clay Discussion **Spoilers**

Moderators: Jason, Toothy, Tonyblack

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:32 am

poohcarrot wrote:So are you both saying that;

a) Vimes has never been bribed?

b) He never allows the other Watch personnel to accept bribes?

c) He has never broken the law and not been held accountable?

PS I don't think my comment was obnoxious in the slightest. Cynical, maybe. :?
No, I never said any of those things. :?

As Dotsie pointed out, his younger self in Night Watch, before he came under the influence of John Keel, was being influenced by other members of the Watch who would certainly accept bribes.

I'm talking about the Vimes of Feet of Clay. I never mentioned anything about what he allows other members of the Watch to do and I never mentioned anything about him breaking the law. I'm puzzled that you think I did. :shock:

I did say that in many ways Vimes was as strongly moral as carrot. By that I mean that Vimes believes in the law, but he will use very different methods to Carrot to make sure that the law is kept.

And I'd agree that you are more cynical than obnoxious. :wink:
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 29018
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Willem » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:40 am

Dotsie wrote:Vimes was definitely bribable (?), as we saw in Night Watch. But, his decision to give up the booze and be a real policeman came with the dragon incident.


Actually, Vimes still drinks in Men at Arms although not as much. This surprised me when re-reading it last year - I though he'd given it up after GG too. He's a real policeman in MAA though, complete with bigottery :)
Scientists are predicting the future will be much more futuristic than originally predicted
User avatar
Willem
Member
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:13 pm
Location: Weert, The Netherlands

Postby poohcarrot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:50 am

Tonyblack wrote:No way could Vimes be bribed.


THE NO WAY COULD VIMES BE BRIBED QUIZ

In which book does Vimes say,

"You can't bribe me into accepting this time."
(incidently, implying he's been bribed before. :D )

Vimes is then bribed, accepts the bribe, then admits he's just been bribed.

"I'm bought and sold, aren't I?"

:lol: :lol: :lol:
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
User avatar
poohcarrot
Member
 
Posts: 10425
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:11 pm
Location: NOT The land of the risen Son!!

Postby pip » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:01 am

Thats Jingo of course. at the end of a few of the watch books vimes is bought off wwith various things such as more recruitment ect. In this case its the reopening of the old watch station. Vimes can be bribed but only in a certain way :D
'There is no future for e-books, because they are not books. E-books smell like burned fuel.'
Ray Bradbury (RIP)
User avatar
pip
Member
 
Posts: 9385
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:20 am
Location: KILDARE

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:10 am

poohcarrot wrote:
Tonyblack wrote:No way could Vimes be bribed.


THE NO WAY COULD VIMES BE BRIBED QUIZ

In which book does Vimes say,

"You can't bribe me into accepting this time."
(incidently, implying he's been bribed before. :D )

Vimes is then bribed, accepts the bribe, then admits he's just been bribed.

"I'm bought and sold, aren't I?"

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I stand corrected! :lol:

Although I must add that I was thinking of 'bribe' in negative and criminal terms. The situation you refer to is more of a reluctantly accepted reward, even if Vimes himself refers to it as a bribe. :P
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 29018
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Dotsie » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:55 am

I think that's stretching it a bit :lol:
What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!
User avatar
Dotsie
Member
 
Posts: 9413
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:07 am

Postby raisindot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:42 am

pip wrote:Thats Jingo of course. at the end of a few of the watch books vimes is bought off wwith various things such as more recruitment ect. In this case its the reopening of the old watch station. Vimes can be bribed but only in a certain way :D


These are rewards, not bribes.

A bribe is an offering of something of personal value to influence someone to do something specific that benefits the briber.

Vetinari offers rewards like Dukedoms and statues of Old Stoneface and expansion of the Watch facilities as a means of showing the debt he owes to Vimes. Never once before these actions are taken does Vetinari dangle these rewards as bribes. He is giving his terrier nice tasty treats for performing smashing good tricks. Not offering his terrier treats to perform these tricks.

When Vimes says he is "bought and sold" he is not saying this within the context of being bribed, but that he is powerless to refuse the rewards he has been offered. Even if, deep down, he truly appreciates these rewards.
raisindot
Member
 
Posts: 3219
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA USA

Postby raisindot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:58 am

Please ignore this deleted message. Move along, move along. Nothing to see here.
raisindot
Member
 
Posts: 3219
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA USA

Postby poohcarrot » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:58 pm

raisindot wrote:[A bribe is an offering of something of personal value to influence someone to do something specific that benefits the briber.

Ah J-I*b, there was me thinking the 5th Nellie was one of your fave books too. :roll:

It seems to me that making Vimes a Duke benefitted Vetinari (the briber), because he could now send Vimes to Uberwald to sort out the dwarf problem.

Just like the end of Going Postal paves the way for Making Money, so too does the end of Jingo pave the way for 5th Nellie. 8)
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
User avatar
poohcarrot
Member
 
Posts: 10425
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:11 pm
Location: NOT The land of the risen Son!!

Postby poohcarrot » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:08 am

swreader wrote:
poohcarrot wrote:
swreader wrote:He will do what he believes to be the "right", i.e. moral thing no matter how much pressure or inducement to do otherwise is offered to him.


The main reason being that he is stinking rich. He can't be bribed.

If he weren't rich, who knows? :P


Do you honestly believe, Pooh, that Vimes could be bribed even if he weren't "stinking rich"??? Or are you, as usual, being your cynical, obnoxious self? :P

I'll continue with my "obnoxious" point if may. Hopefully with no more irrational outbursts from certain people. :roll:

Vimes is stinking rich because he married Sybil.
I believe the old cliche "Behind every good man is a good woman" (you know what I mean!) is appropriate. He stopped drinking and started making a life for himself BECAUSE of Sybil.

If he hadn't married Sybil, he wouldn't be stinking rich, and could possibly still be a drunk in the gutter.

If he were a drunk in the gutter, then I think it highly possible for him to take a bribe or do things which were not "morally right".

Hence my "Who knows?" comment (which unfortunately got blasted for being cynical and obnoxious). :lol: :lol:
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
User avatar
poohcarrot
Member
 
Posts: 10425
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:11 pm
Location: NOT The land of the risen Son!!

Postby swreader » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:57 am

The problem with Carrot is an intriguing one--and one which begins to become clear in Feet of Clay. Pratchett made him a naive, dwarf- indoctrinated figure in his first appearance (G!G!) for a number of understandable reasons. First and probably foremost, he is a marvellously funny character. He arrests the head of the Thieves Guild for being a thief. He learns and tries to enforce all the statutes in the codified (and clearly out of date legally) Ankh--Morpork code of laws. But Terry also began the suggestion that he is somehow the heir to the throne (and therefore "divinely right) in this book. Unfortunately those two elements make it increasingly impossible to believe in Carrot as a person. It also makes it impossible for him to learn and develop, and this eventually makes him so boring that increasingly, Terry shunts him into a minor roles.

Carrot is terminally naive, and his moral code is essentially that of a dwarf. Since coming to AM, he has substituted Sam Vimes as his father figure, and tends to take Sam's orders as gospel--if he thinks about them at all. But, he follows orders from Vimes only when it suits him. (eg. - goes into the candle factory when he has been specifically told not to do so).

And for all his "interest" in other people and species, he never really understands them because, I think, he sees them through dwarf-colored blinders. He is horrified at Cheery's revelation that she is a female dwarf. He fails to understand that Angua is different -- a werewolf. In fact, he has no real understanding of other species or humans.

And thus, Terry lets us know in the last lines of the novel that Carrot is unable to change. After all they have been through together, he assumes that Angua (though he knows she is a werewolf) sees the world as he does. He expects her to understand that he has to write his letter home first (of course), and then he's come to ask her not if she will marry him, but if she'd like to help him fix up the Dwarf Bread Museum!
User avatar
swreader
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:39 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.

Postby Tonyblack » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:14 am

That really is one of the problems with Carrot. He's interested in people, but he assumes that everyone thinks as he does. He sees the good in people even when there isn't any. And he assumes that if he likes something then other people will as well.

This is only the third book that he plays a major role and already the character isn't working. Terry has made Carrot and Angua into a couple, but that couple is obviously having problems. Angua seems determined to leave him - and I think she has good reason to - but the book ends on (to me at least) an unsatisfactory note with Angua deciding to stay after all. She seems to have stopped being Carrot's girlfriend and instead become his pet dog.

While I can see that maybe Terry is making exactly that point, it just doesn't fit well with Angua's character.
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 29018
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby ChristianBecker » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:26 am

Tonyblack wrote:She seems to have stopped being Carrot's girlfriend and instead become his pet dog.


Isn't that essentially what she herself says in 5thE?
On with their heads! I'm the clown prince of fools
if you don't get the joke it's your loss
Love and laughter you see are the new currency
'cause greed's coinage is not worth a toss

Exile yourself to the unforgiving continent of Wraeclast!
User avatar
ChristianBecker
Member
 
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:21 pm
Location: Bingen

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:03 am

More or less, yes. But in 5th Nellie Carrot does actually break out a little and the scene at the end of that where they're looking for Gavin is the far more gritty mirror to that notion and therefore a truer summation of their deepened relationship (as it's 2 books on ) in which it's apparent that Carrot's human side is a one woman man to match her ever-faithful hound. Having retrieved the situation with that, there's really not much more Terry can do with the Carrot-Angua relationship except to have them follow Sam and Sybil route which is fraught with pitfalls of course, not least because it won't fit too neatly into them both being active members of the Watch, although with Angua progressing through the ranks now perhaps they will get around it eventually :D
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10591
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby Tonyblack » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:27 am

I should mention:

Spoiler for I Shall Wear Midnight:

Invisable Ink wrote:There a mention in ISWM that Carrot and Angua are living together and that Angua is now a captain.
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 29018
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

PreviousNext

Return to Discworld novels

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests