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Postby poohcarrot » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:40 pm

rockershovel wrote:sounds like another "Vimes in Uberwald" book, set against the rediscovery of Orcs/Goblins living there. Origins of Orcs and their subsequent extermination, or near-extermination, as the "ancient crime" in question. Nutt and possibly Glenda Sugarbean involved in some way.

Good opportunity for closing out the Angua/Carrot arc, which I can't help feeling involves Uberwald in some way.

Lady Margolotta and Vetinari involved in some not-fully-explained way.

Possible opportunity for a throw-away line closing out the Low King/Queen arc.

Opportunity for some sort of reconciliation involving trolls and their culture, following on from Thud!

Then again, all good murder mysteries involve misdirection and false clues...

As far as I recall, the country house isn't too far from A-M. It's not in Uberwald. I don't think there are any orcs, only goblins, so I can't see Mr Nutt being in it. :D
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Postby The Mad Collector » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:48 pm

That was what I remember as well Pooh. It is one of the the Ramkin estate properties so won't be too far away from the city.
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Postby rockershovel » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:46 pm

oh well, we'll all know in November...
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Postby Tonyblack » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:43 pm

In my experience - the books tend to have a whole lot more to them than the 'leaks' we get from Terry.

I was once sworn to secrecy (it doesn't matter now) by a fan who was told in complete confidence by Terry himself, that there would be a Troll in Thud! named Hardcore. Well there was - but if you blinked you would have missed him. :lol:
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Postby The Mad Collector » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:57 pm

Oh there will be a lot more but the openng chapters were read out at the Discworld convention last year so it's a bit more than a leak. :)
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Postby madam » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:25 pm

rockershovel wrote:sounds like another "Vimes in Uberwald" book, set against the rediscovery of Orcs/Goblins living there. Origins of Orcs and their subsequent extermination, or near-extermination, as the "ancient crime" in question. Nutt and possibly Glenda Sugarbean involved in some way.

Good opportunity for closing out the Angua/Carrot arc, which I can't help feeling involves Uberwald in some way.

Lady Margolotta and Vetinari involved in some not-fully-explained way.

Possible opportunity for a throw-away line closing out the Low King/Queen arc.

Opportunity for some sort of reconciliation involving trolls and their culture, following on from Thud!

Then again, all good murder mysteries involve misdirection and false clues...


I don’t think it will be an Uberwald centred book, as someone else pointed out it at least starts off on the vimes/ramkin country estates so it might be geographically a bit closer but I doubt it'll be another fifth elephant (and this is coming from someone who loved that book)

you might be onto something with the orks, I doubt the goblins will be a minor part of the story and the parallels are to strong to ignore totally, though whether or not Nutt turns up is very debatable. Terry did say that he's run through most of his story arc but that doesn’t preclude a more minor role in future books.

Vetinari will almost defiantly get involved with the plot at some level, that’s a given with any watch book. As for Margolotta being involved? Its just too early to tell given Terry’s knack for misdirection and twisty plotwork, but if nutt/orkage turns up I would put money on at least a passing reference, if not a little meddling from her direction. In the end as with so many Pratchett books it’s all dependant on so many different factors its impossible to make any solid theory’s just yet, and you won’t be exactly sure what’s happened until the very last page.

(edited for atrociouse spelling)
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:36 pm

Goblins are orcs - feral ones (i.e. not as nasty as properly brought up ones) :D

Nutt is a domesticated orc, perhaps a better bred one and maybe the start of Orcus Sapiens
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:10 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Goblins are orcs - feral ones (i.e. not as nasty as properly brought up ones) :D

Nutt is a domesticated orc, perhaps a better bred one and maybe the start of Orcus Sapiens


Are they?

Until Nutt remembers he's an Orc everyone thinks he's a goblin which does not cause them to run away screaming - that suggests to me that the difference is more than that one lot are a civilized version of the other?
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Postby madam » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:25 pm

i think they share similarities, but theyre definatly not the same species after all the first orks were created from humans in much the same was LOTR orcs were created from elves.
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:25 pm

I don't think the Discworld Orcs were created from humans madam, possibly from Goblins?
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Postby Sjoerd3000 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:32 pm

Doughnut Jimmy wrote:I don't think the Discworld Orcs were created from humans madam, possibly from Goblins?


End of UA, I think Vetinari says Orcs were created from Humans. Goblins wouldn't be ferocious enough :wink:
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Postby Tonyblack » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:59 pm

Yes, that's what I remember. Even in LoTR Saruman was (if I remember correctly) crossing men with orcs or goblins to make them nastier.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:59 pm

That's right. Orcs are warped from more than goblins, though goblins are their nearest relatives.

Tolkien's Orcs were traditionally (as per the Silmarillion) made from corrupted (by mutilation and necromancy in it's raised from the dead stance - not just talking with them) and deranged elves and various 'spirits', but he later changed his mind and wanted to bring a human strain into it as well - although he somewhat cocked it up because actually the human part of the genetics was supposedly done at much later stages in (officially at least) the Third Age of the Sun with the development of Uruks in Mordor (and possibly Dol Guldur) about 500-1000 years before LotR is mainly based. Saruman definitely bred his orcs from human stock much later than that.

In Tolkien (which is the template for orcs after all) goblins are orcs gone wild and 'diminished' as they're smaller and not as nasty as 'proper' orcs as bred by Sauron and his Dark Lord Morgoth from ancient times. So they're the 'pathetic' Moria orcs who pursue the Fellowship and help capture Merry and Pippin that the Isengard uruks (led by Ugluk) despise and push about, along with the Dol Guldur uruks (led by Grisnakh) who are the original uruks and much nastier than Saruman's lot - in that they're not as disciplined militarily.

Orcs (Yrch) are also called Daugs in Black Speech which means soldiers - that's the difference as orcs are specifically bred for war, whereas goblins are on a par with any other predatory being, but bred back into the mix when times is hard and also as the default retrograde if they escape from their Dark Lord. Nutt's background is with the latter - so ex-soldiers who are gradually going back to the feral state, remembering their origins as soldiers and as the terrible mutated descendants of 'noble' beings (if you can call Discworld Elves noble) who were broken and changed into monsters.

As a domesticated orc people, in their famous way of not noticing anything upsetting, put Nutt down as a goblin because he's so humble and browbeaten, rather than a terrible bloodthirsty full-blown beast of an orc.
Last edited by Jan Van Quirm on Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tonyblack » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:01 pm

:shock: That's amazing! I know when I posted my last post that the next poster would probably be Jan - but she managed to post at the same time as me,

It's like using a summoning spell. :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:02 pm

Ashkente? :lol:
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