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Postby DaveC » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:32 pm

raisindot wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:I think the point about Tonkers and Lofty is that they are lovers but they are not really lesbians. They are not interested in the same sex per se, they are interested in each other and just happen to be of the same sex. So they are technically lesbians but not really.


Gotta ask: Isn't "lesbian" or "homosexual" just a label that straight people applied to those who weren't heterosexual and that, thought most of modern history, has been pejorative until these labels were turned into labels of pride in the last 30 years of so?

I say that because in ancient times there were plenty of Greeks and Romans who had same-sex relationships and no one thought anything of it. They didn't use labels because a person's sexual practices didn't matter--it was considered to be completely 'normal.' It was only until the Judeo-Christian tradition came in an demonized these practices that these terms were invented to identify those are practitioners of acts that were considered "sinful.'

On the DW, presumably such distinctions have never been established either.
Tonker and Lofty don't classify themselves as "lesbians," because they're not even aware that what they're doing could possibly be considered sinful. In their country, two women having a sexual or loving relationship isn't necessarily sinful (we really don't know). It's far more of a sin for a woman to be a soldier.

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I totally agree Jeff. This to me ties in with what Terry writes about race from Nanny and Rincewind's point of view. Don't care what colour a person is, if they're holding a sword, run! Nanny's views on the voodoo witch in WA. Also this is a world where the real dilemma is ' what will people think of me if I marry this nice werewolf?' It would be nice if it was one of those those things that was just a given, like how most people of any sexuality would like to be accepted rather than stand out.
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Postby BaldJean » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:43 pm

It is not true that the Greek had no word for it. How about "paedephilia"? You may say that this term only refers to sexual relationships between a grown-up man and a boy, but that was how male homosexual relationships worked in ancient Greece. Even a hero like Heracles had a catamite (Hylas).
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Postby pip » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:59 pm

BaldJean wrote:It is not true that the Greek had no word for it. How about "paedephilia"? You may say that this term only refers to sexual relationships between a grown-up man and a boy, but that was how male homosexual relationships worked in ancient Greece. Even a hero like Heracles had a catamite (Hylas).


A bit of a generalisation on male male relationships in Greece. In some cases true but in many cases not so.
For example in Sparta most of these relationships developed in the training camps between boys and men of similar ages .
Its a generalisation above based on Athenian upperclass society rather than ANcient Greece in general and even the word PAedophilia was coined much later from the greek language.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:16 pm

I thought the paed prefix means child anyway not boys specifically - paediatrics, paedophile, and for parents peed-off (just lightening up here folks :P ). It's age-derived not gender-based - if it's anything at all so far as the Spartans were concerned it was cultural and nothing much to do with the act of sex as such.

The word lesbian is based on Lesbos, the island of women where Achilles was brought up allegedly and presumably why he got such a hard time in the warrior host, 'cos he wasn't brought up to the male-buddy system presumably - but hey the guy was a demi-god anyway so who cares, he could kick ass just fine, but had a weak ankle... :wink: My point is how Greek can you get? :lol:

It's just a description and, as we're all saying, nothing to do with the storyline much. :roll:
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Postby BaldJean » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:19 pm

pip wrote:
BaldJean wrote:It is not true that the Greek had no word for it. How about "paedephilia"? You may say that this term only refers to sexual relationships between a grown-up man and a boy, but that was how male homosexual relationships worked in ancient Greece. Even a hero like Heracles had a catamite (Hylas).


A bit of a generalisation on male male relationships in Greece. In some cases true but in many cases not so.
For example in Sparta most of these relationships developed in the training camps between boys and men of similar ages .
Its a generalisation above based on Athenian upperclass society rather than ANcient Greece in general and even the word PAedophilia was coined much later from the greek language.

If mine was a generelisation yours is a simplification Pf course even the Ilias has a famos male homoerotic relazionship (Achilles and Patroklos), but I doon't remember what word Homer used to describe that relationship. I will have to check (which will be horrible for me; I have forgotten most of ancient Greek. I had to learn it for my studies, as well as Latin, but I hardly remember any of it).
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Postby pip » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:30 pm

BaldJean wrote:
pip wrote:
BaldJean wrote:It is not true that the Greek had no word for it. How about "paedephilia"? You may say that this term only refers to sexual relationships between a grown-up man and a boy, but that was how male homosexual relationships worked in ancient Greece. Even a hero like Heracles had a catamite (Hylas).


A bit of a generalisation on male male relationships in Greece. In some cases true but in many cases not so.
For example in Sparta most of these relationships developed in the training camps between boys and men of similar ages .
Its a generalisation above based on Athenian upperclass society rather than ANcient Greece in general and even the word PAedophilia was coined much later from the greek language.

If mine was a generelisation yours is a simplification Pf course even the Ilias has a famos male homoerotic relazionship (Achilles and Patroklos), but I doon't remember what word Homer used to describe that relationship. I will have to check (which will be horrible for me; I have forgotten most of ancient Greek. I had to learn it for my studies, as well as Latin, but I hardly remember any of it).


your point proves mine as neither Achilles nor Patroklos were young boys.
Mine was not a simplification as i pointed that there is many froms and chose one as a highlight.
Homer doesn't use a given term for the relationship , similar to Terrys approach. Again subtlety can be a great tool for highlighting it .
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Postby BaldJean » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:51 pm

For the female equivalent it is interesting that it appears that Momer's ode on Demeter has been tampered with regarding the relationship between Hecate and Kore, who was later named Persephone. My view on the whole Persephone myth is that she and Hecate became lovers. Since Persephone had eaten the pomegrasnate seed she could not leave Hades forever anymore, and part of the deal Hades got out of letting her return for a few months yearly is that she posed as his wife, though actually there waas no sexual relationship between the two. Interestingly the marriage between them has no offspring, which seems to prove my point. The real lovers were Hecate and Persephone.
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Postby pip » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:59 pm

'Then bright-coiffed Hecate came near to them, and often did she embrace the daughter of holy Demeter: and from that time the lady Hecate was minister and companion to Persephone.' Hymn to Demeter (439-441)

This could be read that way but its difficult to attch modern concepts to ancient texts as symbolism and ideas have changed completely.
A good example is the use of colours in the original greek text of Homer contrasting completely with both modern greek and english ideas and use of colour.
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Postby BaldJean » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:31 pm

As I said, the whole thing appears to have been tampered with; it looks as if parts regarding Hecate and her role have been left out, and the ode as a whole was never passed on into modern times.
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:39 pm

Going back to an earlier bit of the discussion I would say Pratchett generally avoids the sexual side of relationships and identity, about the only person who seems to consider it in any detail is Nobby (is it in Jingo?)

Given that it's difficult to say more than maybe/maybe not for whether Tonker and Lofty have a physical relationship as well as their obvious emotional bond.
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Postby raisindot » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:52 pm

BaldJean wrote:If mine was a generelisation yours is a simplification Pf course even the Ilias has a famos male homoerotic relazionship (Achilles and Patroklos), but I doon't remember what word Homer used to describe that relationship. I will have to check (which will be horrible for me; I have forgotten most of ancient Greek. I had to learn it for my studies, as well as Latin, but I hardly remember any of it).


Not knowing a word of Greek, I'll defer to your research.

However, I have read numerous translations of The Illiad. And while there are plenty of adjectives used to describe the characters ('warriors,' 'heroes') or aspects of their personalities (think of all the adjectives used to describe Odysseus), I recall not one ever referring to Achilles as a "boy-loving man" or Patrolos as "adult man-loving boy." Since this behavior was considered completely normal in Homer's era (and probably up until Christian times) there was no need to describe either the act of the nature of the relationship.

These labels only become relevant when people wanted to start portraying them as anything other than 'normal.'

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:31 pm

Like I was saying - Achilles was brought up in Lesbos to warrior adulthood by women and didn't have the exposure to Spartan culture. From extremely hazy memory (I much prefer the Odyssey) the only reference to Achilles' sexuality was something about a massive row over a slave girl and Hector killing his best friend - which Achilles was a tad miffed about and literally knocked the stuffing out of Hector pulling him along on the back of his chariot a few times around Troy...?

He might have been bi-sexual but that's not what he's best-known for is it?

Tonker loves Lofty. Lofty loves Tonker - they may or may not have sex but that qualifies them as lesbian/in a same sex relationship by romantic definition whatever else Terry intends us to think about it.
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Postby Sjoerd3000 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:44 pm

Didn't Achilles fell in love with the Amazone queen? Her name starts with a P :P I look it up :wink: He kills her though, not a nice fellow Achilles :P
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Postby BaldFriede » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:48 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Like I was saying - Achilles was brought up in Lesbos to warrior adulthood by women and didn't have the exposure to Spartan culture. From extremely hazy memory (I much prefer the Odyssey) the only reference to Achilles' sexuality was something about a massive row over a slave girl and Hector killing his best friend - which Achilles was a tad miffed about and literally knocked the stuffing out of Hector pulling him along on the back of his chariot a few times around Troy...?

He might have been bi-sexual but that's not what he's best-known for is it?

Tonker loves Lofty. Lofty loves Tonker - they may or may not have sex but that qualifies them as lesbian/in a same sex relationship by romantic definition whatever else Terry intends us to think about it.

I think Patroklos, or Patroclus, whatever you prefer, was more than just best friend to Achilles. But that debate has been going on for ages. Just look at this wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_and_Patroclus
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Postby Sjoerd3000 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:48 pm

It was Penthesilea :)

It's been a while since I've read the Iliad, so this is from wiki:
He mocks her corpse until he removes her helmet. At this point, Achilles is so moved by Penthesilea's beauty that he feels intense pity and sadness because he wishes that he could have married her.


He just thought she was a looker, then :P
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