Small Gods Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby Quatermass » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:47 pm

Tonyblack wrote:
Quatermass wrote:
Tonyblack wrote:You now have two weeks to read or reread Jingo for the discussion starting on Monday 3rd January. :D


I've got other books on my plate. :( I'm hoping to read Good Omens and CryoBurn by Lois McMaster Bujold before the year is out.
There's no closing date for these discussions. Feel free to join in if and when you reread the book. :wink:


IF being more of the operative word than WHEN.

Anyway, Jingo, at its heart, can be best summed up as extracting the Michael (thank you, Midsomer Murders, for that lovely turn of phrase) out of onanistic patriotism.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:07 pm

Quatermass wrote:Anyway, Jingo, at its heart, can be best summed up as extracting the Michael (thank you, Midsomer Murders, for that lovely turn of phrase) out of onanistic patriotism.

And it'll be a good discussion because of that :D

It helps to re-read the book beforehand of course, especially when it's been a while, but if you like the book and remember it well enough you can blag your way through it easily enough, especially on general principles :lol: I did with Wyrd Sisters as I'd lost my copy in moving house and didn't make too much of an ass of myself (well no more than usual anyway) :wink:

Anyway we have two more weeks on SG still. :D I think this discussion's one that will go on for a long time, even though we haven't necessarily been posting too speedily, mainly because it's one of Terry's best and so not too many points to differ on. :)
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Postby raisindot » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:13 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Anyway we have two more weeks on SG still. :D I think this discussion's one that will go on for a long time, even though we haven't necessarily been posting too speedily, mainly because it's one of Terry's best and so not too many points to differ on. :)


Using this same logic--fewer posts means the books are better, more posts means inferior books--this must mean that "The Color of Magic," "Equal Rites" and "Monstrous Regiment" must also be among Pterry's best books and "Pyramids" must be just about the worst. :roll:

:)

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Postby poohcarrot » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:19 pm

I think you'll find you got that sentence the wrong way round there J-I*b, unless you love COM, MR and ER. :lol:
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Postby raisindot » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:54 pm

poohcarrot wrote:I think you'll find you got that sentence the wrong way round there J-I*b, unless you love COM, MR and ER. :lol:


I also got the names of most of 'em wrong, too (since corrected).

:)

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Postby DaveC » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:43 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:
Quatermass wrote:Anyway, Jingo, at its heart, can be best summed up as extracting the Michael (thank you, Midsomer Murders, for that lovely turn of phrase) out of onanistic patriotism.

And it'll be a good discussion because of that :D

It helps to re-read the book beforehand of course, especially when it's been a while, but if you like the book and remember it well enough you can blag your way through it easily enough, especially on general principles :lol: I did with Wyrd Sisters as I'd lost my copy in moving house and didn't make too much of an ass of myself (well no more than usual anyway) :wink:

Anyway we have two more weeks on SG still. :D I think this discussion's one that will go on for a long time, even though we haven't necessarily been posting too speedily, mainly because it's one of Terry's best and so not too many points to differ on. :)


+ I've read most of them in the past year and can remember them enough without having to reread, although I'lll never say I'm the biggest contributor! :D
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:03 pm

The books are always worth a reread. :D I've read them dozens of times and still get new insights each time I reread. :D

Back to the topic. :P

Do you notice who simple Brutha is at the beginning of the book to the end?

It's as if Terry deliberately made him ultra naiive so that the contrast would stand out more. Brutha gets an education in 'life' - before he'd left the temple, he'd been almost completely shielded from the outside world.
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Postby raisindot » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:41 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Do you notice who simple Brutha is at the beginning of the book to the end?

It's as if Terry deliberately made him ultra naiive so that the contrast would stand out more. Brutha gets an education in 'life' - before he'd left the temple, he'd been almost completely shielded from the outside world.


Isn't that the way all prophets are? They tend to be a bit sheltered and simple until they either find enlightenment or they meet up with the deity of their choice who spoils their plans for a quiet life of well deserved obscurity and recruits them to go out and kick some pagan ass.

Look at Abraham--he was a simple shepherd and idol worshipper until the Lord told him to put away the toys away and worship him.

Look at Moses--he was the token Jew in the Pharoah's palace until he killed a guard, ran off to become a shepherd, and would have stayed that way forever if the Lord hadn't recruited him using the Burning Bush trick.

Look at Mohammed--he was a simple, well-off merchant until he became Allah's official stenographer.

Buddah was pretty much a regular royal prince until he wandered off, sat under a tree for a few years, and found enlightenment.

Even Jesus spent his first 30 years building chairs and tables until his Dad kicked him in the butt and told him to go off and tell everyone the Good News.

Look at Mightily Oats. He was a naive, self-doubting, recent seminary graduate with no spirit cred until Granny and the Vampyrs taught him the true meaning of Om.

Prophets always have to come from humble and ignorant beginnings. If they started off as well educated, world-weary, spiritual manipulators, they'd be--bishops and caliphs and mullahs and high priests. Who wants to listen to THEM?

:D

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:53 pm

Agree he's ultra innocent Tony, but he wasn't 'shielded' from the world before he went to the citadel. His grandmother abused and belittled him and basically iniolated his personality and so the faith was beaten into him - he hated her rightly and even that was turned into a sin because that's what the Quisition had done to Omnism. You were only without sin when you were dead and hell was while you lived.

Basically Brutha had Stockholm Syndrome without the 'love' - all he knew was the 'faith' and his only protection was to remember as much as he could about every single thing that happened around him, so he wouldn't get another beating - which he got anyway. There is some cultural justification for 'holiness' through pain and degradation even before the Roundworld Quisition began.

Hairshirts and scourging and fasting in christian institutions, away from secular communities, literally 'abusing the unworthy flesh' was encouraged not just as punishment but also to attain a state of shock and 'ecstasy' in which 'visions' came easily. :x This was because the nuns and monks were so far gone in starvation or extreme pain and just clinging to consciousness in which they hallucinated royally and so were closer to their god :roll: Same with less tub-thumping religions like Buddhism which is long on fasting too but does it more sanely. His early conversations with Om illustrate how thoroughly the faith was instilled into him, yet he knew instinctively that the violence his gran and Vorbis practised was very wrong. But all that abuse did translate into making him the humble and dutiful disciple, and his mindset that rejected all the cruelty practised on him, eventually led to his own Prophethood and his conviction to take the church away from the indoctrination and obscenities practised in the name of the great god - a god who didn't want or need all the warped worship so long as he had believers. :wink:
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Postby raisindot » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:37 pm

Finally got the copy Verns was kind enough to send me--now my Kirby collection is 99% complete (I'll bet you can guess the remaining 1% consists of).

I have to admit that I'm liking this book much much better the second time around.

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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:34 pm

raisindot wrote:Finally got the copy Verns was kind enough to send me--now my Kirby collection is 99% complete (I'll bet you can guess the remaining 1% consists of).

I have to admit that I'm liking this book much much better the second time around.

J-I-B

5th elephant?
Thud?
Nightwatch? :?
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:38 pm

Might be FE - Thud and Nightwatch don't have Kirby covers as he died not long after FE which was his last one I think, so they're Paul's era :wink:
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:42 pm

:roll: :oops: :lol: I knew that! :roll: :oops: :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:53 pm

I knew that too hunny :P
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Postby DaveC » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:17 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Might be FE - Thud and Nightwatch don't have Kirby covers as he died not long after FE which was his last one I think, so they're Paul's era :wink:
I'm confused. I thought The Truth was his last cover?
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