Small Gods Discussion *Spoilers*

Moderators: Jason, Toothy, Tonyblack

Postby poohcarrot » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:21 pm

Pip, SW still hates me because of wikileaks, hence the "Old boy" comment. 8) :lol:
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
User avatar
poohcarrot
Member
 
Posts: 10425
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:11 pm
Location: NOT The land of the risen Son!!

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:36 pm

No worries Pip - pooh likes spherical shaped things because they give him a chance to rant on ironic symbolism which is his own religion in a way - that and the bleeding obvious.:wink:

Lu-tse steers and guides without direct intervention as such - that's his job, which does not always take account of what's supposed to happen. Simony and civil war - mere semantics. :lol: War is war and arguably war on your own doorstep, in the hall and up in the bedrooms is the worst sort to have to deal with. Lu-Tse takes action when needed so he's a vital ingredient and really undercover ops, so he can't take too overt a path and get visibly involved in this kind of mission, which is one among many as we're told in that Omnia is not his only destination.

Another piece of verbal symbolism since we're into minutiae now :P Simony the denier of Om - Simon Peter chief disciple of Jesus and 1st Pope - who also 'betrayed' his god in a moment of fear and madness, but was ultimately the rock of belief in which the Turtle Moves and on which New Practical Omnism is based. I agree the bonsai mountains are a nice touch so Islam gets a look in as well as the Old and New Testaments... which all are or have been schisms anyway :lol:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:53 pm

Or there's this definition of simony. :wink:
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28834
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby pip » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:58 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Or there's this definition of simony. :wink:


That i did not know :D
very interesting
'There is no future for e-books, because they are not books. E-books smell like burned fuel.'
Ray Bradbury (RIP)
User avatar
pip
Member
 
Posts: 9383
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:20 am
Location: KILDARE

Postby DaveC » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:03 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Or there's this definition of simony. :wink:


Cool. 8)
Adventures of a Film Geek - My Blog

Check out my short film!

"Dude, this thing claims I have mail. Dude, now I'm reading it."
This Is...
User avatar
DaveC
Member
 
Posts: 3790
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:35 am
Location: Portishead, UK

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:13 pm

swreader wrote:
They have to work together and depend on each other absolutely. Vorbis is their instrument in a way, even though he has no part in their ordeal, his hijacking their feat in crossing the desert is necessary to the faith's reception and re-establishment on a surer footing which is not Brutha's spectacular rescue from the turtle but in his averting the war.


You make some good points, Jan. This is just a niggling (but nonetheless important) minor revision of your analysis at the quoted section.

Brutha tried to avert the war, BUT HE FAILED and goes stomping off the apparent field of battle which is precipitated by the appearance of Urn's now functioning "tank". The war is stopped, rather, by Om's intervening and forcing the other gods to agree to his understanding of the proper relationship between man and his god(s). It is the storm (caused by Om's actions) that puts the various parties together in a shelter and makes them see the wisdom of working together rather than fighting when the storm ends.

It's all things that 'have' to happen though isn't it? Vorbis knocking Brutha out and 'saving' him from dying in the desert set up the process for Brutha's potential martyrdom, which sparked the necessary lightning bolt of belief to power Om back into 'smiting' mode :D If that hadn't happened then he wouldn't have been able to go and kickass on Cori Celesti, so it's no one thing, but the chain reaction which also has an elastic interchangeable combination, any one of which removed could have had a different cause and effect. What if Om hadn't managed to entice the eagle to pick him up, or couldn't have held on for long enough to get deposited on Vorbis?

Come to that, why didn't Lu-tse get sent to Omnia to prevent the Quisition being set up in the first place. The History monks intervene at key points and obviously the Quisition wasn't important enough to prevent, but having the recently revived Om fall on a nice soft dung-heap and not on hard rock was something that perhaps had to happen for all the rest to follow on from, so they got the 100 years of 'peace' and re-assessment with Brutha at the helm instead of war... And THEN 100 years later he dies, having done the work which would have had to be done anyway when 'the war that never was' had ended - they bought 100 years of re-education by Vorbis getting killed and not Brutha... :wink:

History's not got a start or a finish essentially - it's a rolling programme, so Simony, Urn, Didactylos and Brutha all had to be on that beach and provide enough of a distraction for long enough for Om to get the other gods onside and beating the other nations into submission so they'd see the sense of not fighting. Yet more irony as godly violence prevents human violence for a change... :twisted:

Once Brutha's gone then they start squabbling about Ossory and Abbys again, so situation normal, but the key thing is that they can argue and debate about it and produce people like Mightily Oats who can still deliver the core faith with understanding that actually does help people, even if some of it is still actually bollocks 8)

Isn't Terry clever! :wink:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby raisindot » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:11 pm

All this discussion makes me totally wanted to read SG again. But I have to hold off until I get the Kirby version Verns is kindly sending me.

Funny, such similar discussion didn't make me want to reread "Pyramids..."

:D

J-I-B
raisindot
Member
 
Posts: 3185
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA USA

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:27 pm

Nothing wrong with the occasional dose of prejudice Jeff :wink:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby raisindot » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:56 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Nothing wrong with the occasional dose of prejudice Jeff :wink:


Ahhh. 'Literary criticism' is when you don't like a certain book someone else likes.

'Prejudice' is when someone doesn't like a book you like.

Got it.

:D

J-I-B
raisindot
Member
 
Posts: 3185
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA USA

Postby Quatermass » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:21 am

raisindot wrote:
Jan Van Quirm wrote:Nothing wrong with the occasional dose of prejudice Jeff :wink:


Ahhh. 'Literary criticism' is when you don't like a certain book someone else likes.

'Prejudice' is when someone doesn't like a book you like.

Got it.

:D

J-I-B


No, no no no. The distinction is not that. Literary criticism, regardless of whether it is thought out or not, is when you don't like a book that you have read. Prejudice is when you don't like a book that you haven't even so much as looked at the cover.

For example, prejudice would be my state of mind before I read Atlas Shrugged, and thought it to be crap. Literary criticism is what my state of mind was after I read Atlas Shrugged (for a bet) and knew that it was crap.

Or, for a better example, prejudice would be my state of mind before I read Twilight, and thought it to be crap. Literary criticism is what my state of mind was after I read Twilight and realised that it was a classic... a classic example of mediocrity (rather than crappiness).

BTW, back on track before I completely derail this thread, I think that comparing Small Gods and Pyramids, while intriguing, is a little bit of a stretch. Not too much, but really, you cannot really compare Pteppic and Brutha (so much as contrast).

In Pyramids, I think (and yes, I am aware that Jan van Quirm, at least, has pointed this out, or at least I checked after writing this post to try and flame-proof this post) the main theme seems to be tradition versus progression. Whereas Small Gods is more about belief, morality, and the differences between gods and men (which really isn't that big a difference, when you think about what our theologies have involved: look at the Greek Gods in particular. The biggest bunch of misogynists, rapists, and petty murderers I have seen outside the circles of Hell).
I've lived for over 2000 years, and not all of them were good ones. I've made many mistakes. And it's about time I did something about that.

-The Twelfth Doctor, Doctor Who: Deep Breath
User avatar
Quatermass
Member
 
Posts: 5622
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:58 am

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:24 am

JVQ or just Jan will do Quatermass :lol:

It's always struck me as ironic that the basis of philosophy and civilisation was 'born' in a country with such a godsawful and unruly pantheon - perhaps it's because they had such crap gods? :lol: Also ironic are the Scandinavian myths, which are in some respects positively sensible in comparison with the Greek ones, belonged to such so-called barbaric nations :P

Creation myths are so fascinating though - was it the Golgafrinchams who were waiting for the Big Hankerchief to end the Universe after it being created by the Big Sneeze? :lol: It certainly explains why some areas of this particular planet aren't much better than nose debris... :P

The main parallel for me between Djelibeybi and Omnia is the desert culture which gives rise to such singular expositions of gods and culture on the Disc and to produce more than their fair share of Prophets with 'vision' of various and dubious quality. With tangible gods religion is really more like choosing which party to go to - or belong to I suppose, but a partay party is so much better than a political party I think. :lol: Does Offler offer better after-life and sacrifice options than Blind Io? Do you really want to throw in your lot with Fate or throw some bones with the Lady? 8) Look what happened to Jesus in his 'incarnation'? Maybe manifesting isn't such a good trait in a decent, easy-going god? :twisted:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby Quatermass » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:21 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:JVQ or just Jan will do Quatermass :lol:

It's always struck me as ironic that the basis of philosophy and civilisation was 'born' in a country with such a godsawful and unruly pantheon - perhaps it's because they had such crap gods? :lol: Also ironic are the Scandinavian myths, which are in some respects positively sensible in comparison with the Greek ones, belonged to such so-called barbaric nations :P


Buggered if I know. Or, a more appropriate axiom, it's all Greek to me.

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Creation myths are so fascinating though - was it the Golgafrinchams who were waiting for the Big Hankerchief to end the Universe after it being created by the Big Sneeze? :lol: It certainly explains why some areas of this particular planet aren't much better than nose debris... :P


Or cruel and random chance. Or Finagle's Law: the perversity of the universe tends towards a maximum, aka, anything that can go wrong, will go wrong, at the worst possible time. So I've probably destroyed a few hundred universes during my cold. That's life.

Bit of semi-related trivia: the nose sculpture used in the temples of the church of the Arkleseizure in the movie of The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy is actually a 3D model of Douglas Adams' nose.
I've lived for over 2000 years, and not all of them were good ones. I've made many mistakes. And it's about time I did something about that.

-The Twelfth Doctor, Doctor Who: Deep Breath
User avatar
Quatermass
Member
 
Posts: 5622
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:58 am

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:36 pm

You now have two weeks to read or reread Jingo for the discussion starting on Monday 3rd January. :D
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28834
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Quatermass » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:15 pm

Tonyblack wrote:You now have two weeks to read or reread Jingo for the discussion starting on Monday 3rd January. :D


I've got other books on my plate. :( I'm hoping to read Good Omens and CryoBurn by Lois McMaster Bujold before the year is out.
I've lived for over 2000 years, and not all of them were good ones. I've made many mistakes. And it's about time I did something about that.

-The Twelfth Doctor, Doctor Who: Deep Breath
User avatar
Quatermass
Member
 
Posts: 5622
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:58 am

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:21 pm

Quatermass wrote:
Tonyblack wrote:You now have two weeks to read or reread Jingo for the discussion starting on Monday 3rd January. :D


I've got other books on my plate. :( I'm hoping to read Good Omens and CryoBurn by Lois McMaster Bujold before the year is out.
There's no closing date for these discussions. Feel free to join in if and when you reread the book. :wink:
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28834
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

PreviousNext

Return to Discworld novels

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests