Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby robdavies1775 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:12 pm

Ah yes, I've just re-read that passage bearing what you said in mind and I think you're right.

Oh my God Vetinari is even cooler than I already thought he was!

Thank you.
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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:43 pm

robdavies1775 wrote:Ah yes, I've just re-read that passage bearing what you said in mind and I think you're right.

Oh my God Vetinari is even cooler than I already thought he was!

Thank you.


I think Vetinari is at his best in the two Moist books. He's really an active character, rather than the "enabler masking as opponent" role he plays in most of the Watch books and The Truth.

Unfortunately, his character begins to change in very bad ways from this point forward...
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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby Mixa » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:37 pm

Making money has been the latest destination during my first Discworld re-reading journey and yes! I’ve enjoy it a lot more than the first time, specially having fresh in mind Going Postal.

Great characters (Yeah, Vetinari rocks!), amazing unexpected turns (I was like :o during all the ending part), LOL scenes: Igor and his creations, the trial and Mr. Fusspot (that was tremendous XD), striking criticisms to banks, economy, human beings and to other novels (the giant squid of the UU was clearly a wink to HP, wasn’t it?).

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I have to say I love reading all your opinions, although for me it’s always very difficult to find downsides on Pratchett’s books and characters… I may have different preferences but I always see them fine twined and take my hat off to them!

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raisindot What do you mean with:

raisindot wrote:Unfortunately, his character [Vetinari] begins to change in very bad ways from this point forward...


First you criticize Carrot and now Vetinari?? I warn you…

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My patience has got a limit!

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:19 pm

Mixa wrote:raisindot What do you mean with:

raisindot wrote:Unfortunately, his character [Vetinari] begins to change in very bad ways from this point forward...


First you criticize Carrot and now Vetinari?? I warn you…

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My patience has got a limit!

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Mx


Sorry, Mixa. Your lovely, positive, and upbeat Catalonian outlook on life prevents you from the free expression of negativity. It's a very healthy thing that you give you a long and contented life, but not one that lends itself well to literary criticism. Vetinari does indeed begin to change here. Never in previous books does he refer to himself as a "tyrant" or so blatantly define his role. The greatness of his character has always rested in his ability to imply the danger and ruthless power he embodies without specifically stating it. A raised eyebrow is generally all he needs to strike fear into even the most powerful citizens. But in Making Money he goes on long-winded discussions of his role as tyrant. What was subtle become obvious. It's the embryonic element of Pterry's new narrative style, which comes to cyrysalis table fruition first in Unseen Academicals and then full-born adulthood in Snuff and Raising Steam. The symptoms of this narrative decline are the replacement of quick dialogue with long-winded speeches and monologues where characters (or the people they're interacting with) are constantly redefining themselves in the most clumsy ways, Subtlety is replaced with crude declarations.
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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby Mixa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:33 pm

raisindot wrote:Sorry, Mixa. Your lovely, positive, and upbeat Catalonian outlook on life prevents you from the free expression of negativity.


Thanks for the compliment, raisindot! :mrgreen:

Well, I completely agree with you that Vetinari along with lots of characters and Discworld in general experience through the books a changing transformation. But I personally don’t find it decadent at all. Rather the opposite.

More and more Pratchett incorporates in his latest books bigger and harsher criticisms about a larger variety of issues. If he continued to use the same amount of subtlety to transmit them to us, his books would be the never ending story!

Moreover, I love when Pratchett makes use of assertiveness talking –as we say- “clar i català” :D (clear and catalan = plainly), because sometimes a crude declaration is worth a thousand subtleties.

I believe Sir Terry got fed up of political correctness and decided to take action empowering his message, even though that meant sacrificing flourishes in his writing style.

And a reflection of that change of mind is Vetinari. At the beginning of his mandate he had a public image to cultivate but now that everyone knows what he is capable of, has replaced subtleness for cheek.

It’s like the revelation Moist experiences during the trial when he sees Mr. Fusspot…

In a world where that just happened, Moist thought. Nothing matters.


Oh, and about myself as a literary critic… I may never be a professional one, but when I sometimes write a review about a book I didn’t like… Its writer trembles. :twisted: :lol:

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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby JamesW » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:45 pm

Mixa wrote:
Oh, and about myself as a literary critic… I may never be a professional one, but when I sometimes write a review about a book I didn’t like… Its writer trembles.


Remind me never to get on your bad side Mixa :shock:
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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby DaveC » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:07 pm

Yikes!!!

I'm not much of a critic myself, I'm also too optimistic...
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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:18 pm

Mixa wrote:
I believe Sir Terry got fed up of political correctness and decided to take action empowering his message, even though that meant sacrificing flourishes in his writing style.


That's a very interesting statement, because I see Pterry moving much more TOWARD the direction of political correctness in recent books. In the earliest books there were plenty of "speciest" jokes about trolls, dwarves and other non-human species (including Nobby Nobs). Gradually, he began to "flesh out" some of these races (particularly the dwarves).

But with Snuff and, most blatantly in Raising Steam, he's taken political correctness to the extreme. Every race, whether it's dwarfs, trolls or goblins, are all wonderfully diverse and worthy species with deep, cultures and strong family ties and are all intelligent and everyone (except the grags) gets along splendidly with everyone else and now we get human/dwarf marriages and what could be budding romances between dwarfs and trolls, and, of course, there's Nobby's relationship with the goblin. Nothing at all wrong with this, but Pterry's obvious and blatant attempts to turn the DIscworld into a giant world of feel-good tolerance is pandering to PC at its worst. All of the best drama in the DW books sprang from conflicts--and his last few books Pterry has watered down the conflict aspects to blatantly that the drama is gone.
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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby Mixa » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:56 pm

JamesW wrote:Remind me never to get on your bad side Mixa :shock:


:lol: :lol: Don’t worry guys, I don’t bite… much. :lol: :lol:

I see what you mean, raisindot, but you’ve gone in another direction. I said he refused political correctness when expressing his opinions because if he already barely didn’t mince his words, now he’s totally shameless.

But referring to races and cultures, I believe Pratchett is trying to show the bright side of life and give Discworld a good ending -or as we say “un final rodó” (a round ending) :mrgreen: - not only reflecting our society but showing us an example to follow.

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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:21 pm

Mixa wrote:
JamesW wrote:Remind me never to get on your bad side Mixa :shock:


:lol: :lol: Don’t worry guys, I don’t bite… much. :lol: :lol:

I see what you mean, raisindot, but you’ve gone in another direction. I said he refused political correctness when expressing his opinions because if he already barely didn’t mince his words, now he’s totally shameless.

But referring to races and cultures, I believe Pratchett is trying to show the bright side of life and give Discworld a good ending -or as we say “un final rodó” (a round ending) :mrgreen: - not only reflecting our society but showing us an example to follow.

Mx


Oh, I agree with you on both fronts. But in the past, Pterry was far more willing to "express opinions" free of "PC-sensitivity" (remember all the references to dwarfs as "lawn ornaments"?). In recent books, you see nothing of these kind of 'speciest jokes' or if you do, they're treated as "bad things to say." I also agree that it does look like he's trying to give Discworld a "good ending," but he's doing it in such a blatant, artificial way that it ventures into the literary sin nearly all of his books have avoided in the past--polyannism.
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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby Mixa » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:06 pm

Yes, I totally understand your position raisindot, but I don’t think Pratchett will turn a blind eye to negative aspects... I mean, assassins, thieves, corrupts, gangsters, psychopaths, bastards, crooks and all this “crème de la crème” among others will continue existing… Mainly, because a great majority of principal characters are part of it, don’t you think? :D

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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:30 pm

Mixa wrote:Yes, I totally understand your position raisindot, but I don’t think Pratchett will turn a blind eye to negative aspects... I mean, assassins, thieves, corrupts, gangsters, psychopaths, bastards, crooks and all this “crème de la crème” among others will continue existing… Mainly, because a great majority of principal characters are part of it, don’t you think? :D

Mx


[Deleting this entire message because I only now remembered that this is the Making Money discussion, not the Raising Steam discussion. SORRY!!!!!!!]
Last edited by raisindot on Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby Aquamarine » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:18 am

It's been a while since I've touched this one, but I thought it was good. Reading Going Postal first certainly does dampen the suspense a bit, since the plotline is very similar. On the other hand, there were plenty of good inclusions, like Mr Bent, Herbert, Cosmo Lavish (and Heretofore), and Dr Hix.

I don't know if it's a great book, though. I keep forgetting it whenever listing Discworld books.
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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby Mixa » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:38 pm

Raisindot, unfortunately I still haven’t been able to read Raising Steam (as I’m waiting for the Spanish translation), but as soon as I’ll do I’ll give my opinion. Meanwhile… I’ll be watching you…

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:D :D :D

Aquamarine, I suppose our tastes towards Discworld books continuously change in every stage of our lives, but I’m glad you enjoyed it after all, welcome to the forum! :dance:

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Re: Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:17 pm

Mixa wrote:Raisindot, unfortunately I still haven’t been able to read Raising Steam (as I’m waiting for the Spanish translation), but as soon as I’ll do I’ll give my opinion. Meanwhile… I’ll be watching you…

Image

:D :D :D

Aquamarine, I suppose our tastes towards Discworld books continuously change in every stage of our lives, but I’m glad you enjoyed it after all, welcome to the forum! :dance:

Mx


Ohhhhhhh, CRAP!!!!!!! I totally forgot that this is the Making Money discussion, and here I go posting giveaway spoilers for Raising Steam! I so apologize profusely to you, Mixa, and anyone else who read my message, which I have now deleted.
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