Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

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Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:35 am

**Warning**

This thread is for discussing Making Money in some depth. If you haven’t read the book then read on at your own risk – or, better still, go and read the book and join in the fun.

For those of us that are going to join in the discussion, here are a few guidelines:

Please feel free to make comparisons to other Discworld books, making sure you identify the book and the passage you are referring to. Others may not be as familiar with the book you are referencing, so think before you post.

Sometimes we’ll need to agree to disagree – only Terry knows for sure what he was thinking when he wrote the books and individuals members may have widely different interpretations – so try to keep the discussion friendly.

We may be discussing a book that you don’t much care for – don’t be put off joining in the discussion. If you didn’t care for the book, then that in itself is a good topic for discussion.

Please note: there is no time limit to this discussion. Please feel free to add to it at any time - especially if you've just read the book.

And finally:

Please endeavour to keep the discussion on topic. If necessary I will step in and steer it back to the original topic – so no digressions please!
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Making Money by Terry Pratchett
Originally published 2007

Image

Introduction

Moist von Lipwig was such a success at changing the fortunes of the Post Office that Lord Vetinari wants him to do the same for the Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork. Moist resists but ends up being a dogsbody – literally!

What is the secret that the chief clerk is so carefully hiding and can Moist defeat the sinister Cosmo?
-----------------------------------------
Please convince me that I’m wrong about this book. Normally when I find one of the books a bit disappointing on the first read, a subsequent read will change my mind about it. It didn’t happen with this one. I found myself really not caring much about the bank, Moist, Miss Dearheart or anyone else. As a sort of sequel to Going Postal I don’t think it comes close.

Still, considering some of the recent financial problems in the world, this book is quite prophetic.

But convince me that I’m wrong about this book. Tell me what you thought of it.
------------------------

Want to write the introduction for the next discussion (Small Gods)? PM me and let me know if you’d like to – first come first served. :wink:
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
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Postby poohcarrot » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:46 am

Call me Mr Cynical if you like. :D

In Going Postal Racher Gilt advertised he was a pirate, yet was still successful. This is exactly how I felt about Terry Pratchett and Making Money. :(

As you do, I bought the book on the first day it came out. I read it quickly and was expecting great things, but sadly was disappointed. It was an exact carbon copy of the more superior Going Postal. It seemed to me that TP was just regurgitating the same story purely, as the title advertised,as a way of making money. :(

I read it again twice soon after buying it and my opinion stayed the same, making me regard it as the weakest Discworld book. :(

Having said all that, I read it three months ago and must say that my opinion changed. It is actually quite funny in places, Vetinari is brilliant throughout and the story is topical. It's never a classic by any standards, but it's better than some others I could mention. :P

If you are expecting great things, you'll be disappointed.
If you aren't expecting anything much, you'll be pleasantly surpised.

If you read Going Postal before Making Money, you won't like Making Money.
If you read Making Money before Going Postal, you will like Making Money. 8)
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
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Postby ghostsecurity28 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:40 am

I enjoyed both going postal and making money I was sad to hear wuffles died :(
At least I have the wee dog immortalized in a clarecraft piece :)

I agree with tony it did seem rather prophetic in the present/recent banking crisis and you do think how did the chap feel originally when paper money was produced on earth ?
Did he feel he was onto a dead cert ?

Some of the earliest known paper money dates back to China, where the issue of paper money became common from about AD 960 onwards.
And in Heather's case, there were sometimes Third Thoughts and Fourth Thoughts, although these were quite difficult to manage and sometimes led her to walk into doors
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Postby raisindot » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:36 pm

poohcarrot wrote:If you read Going Postal before Making Money, you won't like Making Money.
If you read Making Money before Going Postal, you will like Making Money. 8)


Wrong as usual.

:D

I read Going Postal first (when it came out) and the Making Money (when it came out). Initially, I liked MM more than GP, but, after going back and reading both of them, I have also conclused that GP is the better of the two. I certainly "like" MM; I just don't like it as much as GP.

I would not say MM is PTerry's weakest book (Pyramids, COM and TLF are his weakest books---[ducking the Poo :) )]. It may be his weakest "modern period" book (although I'm still not convinced it's significantly worse than Unseen Academicals)

Narratively, the main problem with MM is that it has a number of outstanding scenes that stand out like the occasional oasis in a largely empty narrative desert. For me, the great scenes of the book are:

- Moist's first meeting with Harry King
- The meeting where Hubert the Economist explains to Vetinari why using the golems as laborers would be a "terrible idea"
- Moist's second encounter with Harry King outside the bank after it's closed down
- Moist's interview with Sacaricia as he's 'burying' the golem army
- The scene where the Men of the Mint agree to Moist's proposals for a change in careers
- The entire courtoom scene, and particularly the sublime moment when Moist makes the ultimate courtroom confession

For me, some of these scenes are the best scenes PTerry has ever written. But surrounding them are pages of pages of simply boring stuff. The Cribbins subplot. Cosmo Lavish's Vetinari fixation. Poochie's self-absorbed rantings. The endless scene in UU where Spike gets the golden arm. So much padding, and it drags the story to a halt.

But I think that main problem here is that there is no huge central problem for Moist to overcome. We know he's going to make the bank a success. Cosmo Lavish is one of the weakest villians Pterry has ever created and presents no danger at all to him. The missing gold subplot is the result of accident, and Moist is totally powerless to do anything about it, and only gets out of it because of the last-minute intercession by Mr. Bent.

But, ah, Mr. Bent. He may actually be the best part of the story. He starts off as an imitation of Mr. Groat--someone who starts off contrary and then ultimately is 'won over' by Moist's vision. But he's much than that. Unlike any other "side character" in a DW novel, Bent is much more than a comic foil. He truly is a tragic figure. In his backstory you get a sense he had been abused in many more ways other than simply being forced to "play the clown." For once, you truly understand his resistance to change, his love of numbers, his anti-social nature--all of which in other points would have painted him as yet another "baddie character" for Moist to overcome, but here, his redemption--powered by guilt and enabled by his recognition of who he truly is--is quite possibly the best thing about what is certainly not the best but far from the worst DW book.

J-I-B
Last edited by raisindot on Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby raisindot » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:32 pm

Wow, this must be a popular book if we can only get three messages in two days.


:D

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Postby pip » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:44 pm

Liked it , Didn't love it.

Thought Cosmo was an inspired character though and would love to see a revisit to the Vetinari ward in a future book.

Even found myself trying out the eyebrow thingy. :lol:
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Postby poohcarrot » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:06 pm

raisindot wrote:Wow, this must be a popular book if we can only get three messages in two days.
:D

J-I-B

As far as I recall, only you and Bouncy loved it.
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Postby Dotsie » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:08 pm

I really enjoyed it, but haven't had time to reread it.
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Postby Bouncy Castle » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:21 pm

I do, I do!!
Some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them.

The rest of us are a bit crap.
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Postby ghostsecurity28 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:24 pm

Mr fusspot, best character so far

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:)
And in Heather's case, there were sometimes Third Thoughts and Fourth Thoughts, although these were quite difficult to manage and sometimes led her to walk into doors
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Postby raisindot » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:09 pm

poohcarrot wrote:
raisindot wrote:Wow, this must be a popular book if we can only get three messages in two days.
:D

J-I-B

As far as I recall, only you and Bouncy loved it.


"Popular" in terms of inciting discussion either for or against. The wrong choice of word, perhaps.

I'm still trying to remember what I said in my 10000 word response to SW's comments in another thread and then erased it because I wanted to inflict it in this thread when it came up. Stay tuned. Maybe.

:D

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:26 pm

raisindot wrote:
poohcarrot wrote:If you read Going Postal before Making Money, you won't like Making Money.
If you read Making Money before Going Postal, you will like Making Money. 8)

Wrong as usual.
:D

I read Going Postal first (when it came out) and the Making Money (when it came out). Initially, I liked MM more than GP, but, after going back and reading both of them, I have also conclused that GP is the better of the two. I certainly "like" MM; I just don't like it as much as GP.

As usual pooh's too black and white and you're too literal/pendantic to do gray :roll: :lol:

So a paraphrase for people who recognise that taste like life blurs the borders

If you read Going Postal before Making Money, you won't like Making Money as much as GP.
If you read Making Money before Going Postal, you will like Making Money but you'll like GP more when you get around to reading that. :lol:


OK - this one I'm not going to get passionate about unless someone tries to convince me that Moist is a lovable rogue - he's certainly engaging and funny, but I hate his egocentric behaviour and I refuse to admire his personaliity and motivation in any way. He may be reformed (or reforming) by his standards, but as they're mostly despicable in the first place, not to mention self-serving, he doesn't have to try very hard to achieve some improvement does he? :roll:

Going Postal must be the superior book, because it deals with the situation in a clever and plausible manner and, as pooh says, MM is simply the same thing, but about money instead of mail delivery. Stamps and proper letters (not junk mail :P ) I accept you can get obsessed with for some strange reason. Money is different and harder to satirise in some ways 'cos too much or too little of it causes so much grief. Personally I'm not too fussed about money unless somebody tries to take mine off me without asking nicely. :P

Mr. Fusspot's adorable (far more than Adorabelle who also gets on my nerves too, although I think she's very good at keeping Moist in line so that a major plus point) and brings out Moist's caring side such as it is :roll: The direly 'so awful he's great' Cosmo Lavish I found quite spellbinding in some way, don't ask me why (but perhaps I've been RPing Sauron far too much recently :twisted: ) so there are good things in there but I still don't like it enough because some of the other strands are frankly lame.

Mr Bent could have been so great with the vampire mystery, but then it was just thrown away with the sad orphan clown thing (I felt far sorrier for Verence on the hereditary clown front) and as for the golden golem sub-story well that was just :shock: words fail me - yeah so they make good currency, but the whole oooo they're coming! oooo they're in the city! oooo now they're gone again following shiny Moist! I just couldn't work up the enthusiasm to anticipate or be intrigued. I really like Golems! I love how the Asimovian principle works for them and I thought Terry was really getting somewhere with them as the fire fighters for the city, but no - they're put back in the ground at the end, aside from the horses and didn't we already do the Terracotta Army in Interesting Times? :roll:

The prophetic aspects are apparently there yes, in view of subsequent crashes - Nineteen Eighty-Four was prophetic too and that's a far more impressive attempt at prediction since you could say that MM isn't so much looking forward as retrospective - currencies have crashed or inflated and markets disintegrated before after all, for hundreds if not thousands of years. :roll: Predicting CCTV and Data 'Protection' from scratch by 35 years - that's certainly a good interpretation of the future to come up with, although Hitler in Germany and Stalin in Russia must have helped Orwell along too.

I don't like this book enough and examining why as I've just written I guess there's too many oppportunities missed and far too much re-hashed and I guess the bar's so high now there's bound to be some books that will disappoint. I think also this book's possibly a casualty to RL darkness for Terry - would he have been writing this around the time that his father was terminally ill and perhaps when he wasn't in the best of undiagnosed health himself either, although I think it may have been written well before he was noticing symptoms but it was in production or just published around the time he had his suspected stroke?

For me it's just too derivative, even of his own work, despite all the excellent satire and pace so it comes over as a fob off in the end. :(
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Postby raisindot » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:46 pm

Moist IS a loveable rogue. So there!

Go ahead. Get passionate. :D

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Postby polythenegirl » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:20 pm

I enjoyed this one, though I think Going Postal intrigued me more. I'm going to start re-reading it this evening so I canm give some kind of input into this discussion. Might not be the most intelligent but i'll give it a go :D Still new here and really want to get involved.
Polythene Girl

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:43 pm

raisindot wrote:Moist IS a loveable rogue. So there!

Go ahead. Get passionate. :D

J-I-B

No - you're not even trying! :lol:

I said try convincing me...? :twisted:
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