Are you a Vimes or Carrot (Wo)man?

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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:07 am

swreader wrote:The rest of your statements are equally without foundation or sense. You must know that. Why are you playing the fool? It's not funny nor does it illuminate the discussion.

If I happen to disagree with you, then I'm playing the fool? :shock:

Not one of my statements has any foundation or sense? :shock:

I'll put it down to PMT - Pre Mid Term (elections) :lol:
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby Dotsie » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:54 am

poohcarrot wrote:
poohcarrot wrote:Vetinari showed no surprise that Carrot was going to Uberwald and even gloated a bit to Drumknott that he had forced Carrot to act out of character.

Page 69 - Drumknott and Vetinari wrote:"A somewhat unexpected development, my Lord." Drumknott said quietly.
"An uncharacteristic one, certainly", said Vetinari.

This exchange can be taken more than one way. Why didn't Vetinari agree with Drumknott?

Page 69 cont. wrote:"But surely this is an emergency, sir?...What else are we to call it, sir, when a young man of such promise throws away his career for the pursuit of a girl?"
The Patrician stroked his beard and smiled at something.
"Possibly, a bonus."

So what did Vetinari smile at? Could it possibly be he smiled because his manipulations had born fruit?


How did Vetinari force Carrot to go in any way? He might have guessed that Carrot would go after Angua, he might also see it as a bonus, but nothing he did forced Carrot to go.

And to pour cold water on your earlier arguments, Vetinari (who you seem to think is always right) agrees that running after Angua is out of character.
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:08 am

poohcarrot wrote:
Page 69 cont. wrote:"But surely this is an emergency, sir?...What else are we to call it, sir, when a young man of such promise throws away his career for the pursuit of a girl?"
The Patrician stroked his beard and smiled at something.
"Possibly, a bonus."

So what did Vetinari smile at? Could it possibly be he smiled because his manipulations had born fruit?


Surely if Vetinari had planned it all along he would have just said "a bonus" rather than "possibly a bonus" - I think he's reacting to events more than planning it all from the start
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Postby Tonyblack » Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:45 am

Pooh's Dictionary wrote:Surmise = To guess something is true, using information you have already.


However, most other dictionaries wouldn't be so generous.

sur·mise (sr-mz)
v. sur·mised, sur·mis·ing, sur·mis·es
v.tr.
To infer (something) without sufficiently conclusive evidence.
v.intr.
To make a guess or conjecture.
n.
An idea or opinion based on insufficiently conclusive evidence; a conjecture.


sur·mise (sər mīz′; for n., also sʉr′mīz′)

noun

1.an idea or opinion formed from evidence that is neither positive nor conclusive; conjecture; guess
2.the act or process of surmising; conjecture in general


sur·mise   /v. sərˈmaɪz; n. sərˈmaɪz, ˈsɜrmaɪz/ Show Spelled
[v. ser-mahyz; n. ser-mahyz, sur-mahyz] Show IPA
verb, -mised, -mis·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1. to think or infer without certain or strong evidence; conjecture; guess.
–verb (used without object)
2. to conjecture or guess.
–noun
3. a matter of conjecture.
4. an idea or thought of something as being possible or likely.
5. a conjecture or opinion.
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:21 am

So does everyone think (like SW) that every one of my 4 arguments holds absolutely zero water and I'm just playing the fool? :?

Do you all think (like SW) that Vetinari knew virtually nothing about what was happening in Bonk, despite the Clacks and the diary of the former ambassador who disappeared? :?
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
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Postby Tonyblack » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:31 am

I'm sure that Vetinari did indeed know a lot of what was going on, but hardly everything and I think you give him too much credit.

Remember that Skimmer was actually going to do everything - he was a lot more than just Vimes advisor. But with Skimmer's death, Vimes had to take over and although the whole team eventually succeeded in their task (including Sybil's negotiation skills), it was hardly cut and dried.

All manner of things could have gone wrong. As I said earlier - if Angua hadn't had to slow down to save Carrot, she may have stopped Wolfgang before things got too out of hand. But there's no evidence that she would have or could have and there's certainly no evidence that Vetinari had all the bases covered.

Vetinari is something of a game player - even a gambler. He makes plans and puts his playing pieces into operation and then settles back to see what happens. But I really don't think that even he could predict everything. :)
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Postby Dotsie » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:49 am

I'm not really interested in a taking sides argument, but pooh you are known for sometimes expressing opinions on novels that aren't your own. Expect to be shot down over it :wink: But I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of fun in discussions. If you were an english professor you might disagree.
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:28 am

This thread is funny because it's very simliar to Terry Pratchett v The Pope thread. :lol:

One person has a contrary belief to the majority and that person gets his beliefs slagged off and personal attacks against him. :lol:
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby pip » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:32 am

Yes but one is a deep philisophicaly important discussion.

Then theres the pope one. :lol: :lol:
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:35 am

:lol:
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby raisindot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:37 am

pip wrote:Yes but one is a deep philisophicaly important discussion.

Then theres the pope one. :lol: :lol:


Don't even think about attacking my preferred deity, Anoia. I'll defend to the death any attempts to shatter my belief in tidy kitchen drawers and cutlerly.

:D

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Postby Tonyblack » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:14 pm

pip wrote:Yes but one is a deep philisophicaly important discussion.

Then theres the pope one. :lol: :lol:
:lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:31 pm

raisindot wrote:
pip wrote:Yes but one is a deep philisophicaly important discussion.

Then theres the pope one. :lol: :lol:


Don't even think about attacking my preferred deity, Anoia. I'll defend to the death any attempts to shatter my belief in tidy kitchen drawers and cutlerly.

:D

J-I-B


Oh purr-lease! Next thing you'll be telling us about somebody building an ark because of global warming - in c. 5009 BCE :wink:

Pooh is of course being poohish. Image + :roll:

Vetinari is the ultimate gamesmaster (gambler too perhaps but you can bet *sorry* :oops: he's a brilliant card counter) as well as a supreme tactician. Yes, he knows 'everything' that goes on in Ankh-Morpork and he has Lady M to keep him in the mix on what's going down in Uberwald in terms of her interest in Bonk especially PLUS his own sources of info with the deceased former diplomat for A-M who's killed right at the beginning of the book...

That is the overriding reason (including especially the clacks coming down) to send Vimes out there with the others. As we're all saying Inigo Skimmer's (skimming for info anyone? :lol: ) the key person in that group on the espionage side of things and why he's off to the clacks station at the first opportunity and of course an appointment with Wolfgang. For Vetinari it's the communication breakdown that's most important (but not personal even though it's meant he can't talk to Margalotta for a bit... :P ), so in a way Vimes mission is to smooth things down with the Low King so the clacks goes back up.

Gavin. How could Vetinari possibly know about Gavin's mission aside from observing his arrival in A-M and seeing him leave with Angua. Yes he knew about Gavin's involvement, but I fail to see how he could know WHY he was there or indeed why Angua left with him. That's the wild card - I'll let you have the point on Carrot with the resignation aspect except so far as he was concerned he was out altogether because Angua had deserted him and he couldn't stand it.

The King's Shilling - if I didn't know you better I'd say you'd been smoking too many garden plants :twisted: There is no King of A-M to have his laws flouted. If, in a literal-minded way, you want a King then Carrot is your man/dwarf. The King can make his own law, but he (or she) has other people to enforce it. The King's shilling and kissing the Duchess are nothing more than meaningless traditions. Soldiers and policeman are professionals. But they can walk away or chose to serve in their own way like Polly and Jackrum do. In that respect policemen have more in-built flexibility because the Law can be interpreted. No King . No Duchess. Just your bog standard Terms and Conditions of employment.

Carrot wanted to resign - Vetinari played along with him, knowing fairly well that he'd be back eventually. Gavin and his effect on Carrot in making Angua break rank and not travel with Vimes are unexpected events which Vetinari can afford to overlook, or more likely factor into, his overall gameplan. because it really didn't matter where Carrot was provided Angua was going to Uberwald anyway to sort her family out. :wink:
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Postby LessHero vanU » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:46 pm

Back to the original consideration, of whether being a Vimes or Carrot follower is a matter of whether you came in toward the beginning of the stories or nearer the end, I have to say that I am a Vimes person, and right from the start - indeed from Guards! Guards. I don't think he was a coward or a fool, but somebody deeply hurt; he was slipping "pension" money from his own earnings to help the plight of widows of coppers - because the city were not, and he was deeply cynical of the expectations (no matter how low) that were made on his Watch against the provisions given to it. He was doing his duty, and a lot of that involved making sure he was going to be alive to continue to do it.

I also quite like Carrot, but always regarded him as both an "all action hero" without the arrogance and a sounding board by which all others characters quirks can be measured against. I am not even sure what Angua loves about him, as it could easily be that he is the worst possible suitor apart from all the others - plus the fact that as Carrot loves her then there is no question that he would be unfaithful. There is no real depth to Carrot (strange for a dwarf) but his breadth of compassion for (nearly) all types of people is boundless.

In fact, he will make a great Patrician when Vetanari decides it is time.
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Postby Tonyblack » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:58 pm

LessHero vanU wrote:
In fact, he will make a great Patrician when Vetanari decides it is time.
Never going to happen. Why on earth or Disc would Terry ever get rid of Vetinari? He's much more likely to write Carrot out of the series.

Carrot may be a natural leader (or so we are told), but he doesn't have the cynicism and cunning to be a replacement for Vetinari. He'd never be able to play the guilds against each other or use guile to get information as Vetinari does. :)
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