Are you a Vimes or Carrot (Wo)man?

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Postby poohcarrot » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:55 am

raisindot wrote:It must have been something to the effect of a breaking up note without an explanation, for had she given one, he would have accepted its logic and stayed put.

J-I-B

:shock: A pretty wild assumption there! :D

J-I*b you assumed Carrot might not have regarded himself as a dwarf.
On page 30 Carrot categorically states, "I'm a dwarf".

Also Carrot didn't go and meet the Low King because he had no entitlement to get a bag of gold from the Low King. He wasn't there representing A-M.

Also all you Carrot knockers are spectacularly underestimating one person, a person who was the main reason for Carrot acting out of character. (more later)
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:24 am

Underestimating Terry Pratchett you mean. :roll:
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
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Postby poohcarrot » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:45 am

No! :P Underestimating vetinari. :P
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:43 pm

Like I said earlier - Vetinari has other means (besides the Watch) to deal with city matters so will be interested to see what angle you're coming at this now. :lol:

However - Carrot resigned. Whatever Angua put in the note it was something that very clearly hit him very hard indeed and sent him running to Vetinari to burn his bridges and leaving Fred in charge. I cannot (and neither should anyone else) seriously think that Vetinari, faced with a complete clot in charge of the Watch and therefore pre-warned didn't have a back-up tactic to bring into play. That's just silly. He has spies everywhere and spies on the spies.

The city dwarves are artisans for the most part and so they will at least have custom/trade with the more reputable of the city's trades and 'arrangements' with the less savoury (the Thieves for instance). The Watch is important but only for the big stuff - the other minutiae of running the city is no less assessed, understood and eventually manipulated by Vetinari whose unofficial motto is 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'.

Of course he has other ways to apply pressure on fractious dwarves that will have far more immediate effects on them than what's happening out in Uberwald which will eventually settle one way or another. We see what Terry want us to see of A-M - Vetinari is the brain remember. He doesn't have to act through the Watch in the City as such else why would he send Vimes away (and Cheery, Detritus and Angua by accident rather than his original design) when the urban dwarves were up in arms? The murders had already happened and he still sent the diplomatic delegation of his choice off to the source of the discontent in Uberwald.

Carrot's resignation was an unforeseen surprise maybe (he did try to talk him out of it a little bit), but everything he'd set in motion (identified and helped by his finger on the pulse of Uberwald Lady Margolotta) was still in place with that one exception (Carrot) which he didn't take steps to prevent in some way. In other words he had one less piece to manipulate at home but he'd have had other options (and that would be plural options) without him being in the City helping to keep the dwarves at home in order. Remember Vetinari is the Tyrant that got left to rot in his own dungeon G!G! and still carried on manipulating and orchestrating Vimes in the defence of the city against the dragon. He has setbacks but they're usually ones he's anticipated. Carrot resigning was unexpected but nevertheless still a blip because he didn't have to interfere with the Watch, simply because Fred kept them all from fouling up other skeins of the grand plan by keeping the rest of the Watch amused with the sugar thief hunt.

Finally Carrot the dwarf. He was brought up a dwarf and that's how he's 'cast'. That is his core sense of personal. His core sense of important lies in being a policeman because he will put the city first before dwarvish interests, if it puts the city in danger. He was Vetinari's first line of defence for the Watch whilst Vimes was out in Uberwald but he wasn't the only one.
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
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Postby raisindot » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:54 pm

poohcarrot wrote:
raisindot wrote:It must have been something to the effect of a breaking up note without an explanation, for had she given one, he would have accepted its logic and stayed put.

J-I-B

:shock: A pretty wild assumption there! :D

J-I*b you assumed Carrot might not have regarded himself as a dwarf.
On page 30 Carrot categorically states, "I'm a dwarf".

Also Carrot didn't go and meet the Low King because he had no entitlement to get a bag of gold from the Low King. He wasn't there representing A-M.


Thank you, Pooh, for agreeing with EVERYTHING I've said so far, except for your error in saying that I assumed Carrot did not consider himself a dwarf. In fact, I have said all along that Carrot, of all people, would have wanted to meet the king BECAUSE he would have been the only one of the AM delegation to be considered totally "welcomed" by all of the dwarfs.

But until Angua's note sent him on his quest, he understood that his duty as a copper (i.e., in charge of the Watch until Vimes came back) came first, and his duty as a dwarf was to keep the dwarfs of AM from killing each other, rather than solving the situation in Uberwald. That was Vimes' job.

When he gets the "Dear Carrot" note from Angua, he throws all of these duties away. He doesn't chase Angua as a copper. He doesn't chase Angua as a dwarf. He doesn't chase Angua as a political problem solver. He chases Angua as a lover, and nothing more. That his pursuit eventually brings him back into the political fray has more to do with Angua's mission than his pursuit. All of his physical actions in the book--grabbing the werewolf off Vimes, being the first to fight Wolfgang, are done as a means of demonstrating his 'worth' to Angua and win his 'competition' with Gavin for alpha male. The political/copper considerations are secondary. In TFE, he is a lover first and foremost.

In the musical "1776," which is about the events leading to the Declaration of Independence, John Adams is trying to convince a reluctant Thomas Jefferson that it is his duty as the best writer in the Continental Congress and one of its most brilliant thinks to write the Declaration. Jefferson demurs, wanting to go home to his wife who he hasn't seen in six months.

Adams: For a man of only 36 years, you possess a happy talent for composition, and a remarkable felicity of expression. Now then sir, will you be a patriot--or a lover?

Jefferson: A lover.

This describes Carrot's state of mind in the beginning of TFE perfectly.

:D

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Postby poohcarrot » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:02 pm

Carrot never resigned and never really intended to resign.

To get all the men back who'd left the Watch Carrot says on the last page ; "However, each of these men took the King's shilling and swore an oath to defend the King's Peace."

That oath applies one hundred-fold to carrot. He would never break it.
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby poohcarrot » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:41 pm

From the start Vetinari knew exactly what was happening in Uberwald and knew Angua's family was causing problems. Vetinari wanted both Vimes and Carrot in Uberwald, but couldn't send them both together.

Usually only Vimes went to see Vetinari, but at the start of the book Vimes and Carrot went to see Vetinari. Considering the meeting was about Vimes going to Uberwald, it seems strange that Carrot was there as well. However, Vetinari got Carrot to refute Vimes' reasons for staying in A-M saying the Watch was ticking over nicely. These reasons also applied directly to Carrot, thus giving Carrot the leeway to go to Uberwald after Angua.

So Vetinari manipulated Carrot into acting out of character and going to Uberwald.

Vetinari knew all about Gavin being in A-M and even knew which gate Angua left from.

Vetinari showed no surprise that Carrot was going to Uberwald and even gloated a bit to Drumknott that he had forced Carrot to act out of character.
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:46 pm

Carrot handed his badge to Vetinari in an attempt to resign. Vetinari chose to reject the resignation and give Carrot extended leave instead.

The other officers just left - they didn't resign, they just walked away.

As far as Vetinari is concerned - A-M can pretty much take care of itself even with Colon in charge. After all, it's no so many years before that the Watch comprised of an alcoholic and two dimwits. As we see in the book, the rate of crime actually goes down. So it's no real problem that Carrot leaves. In fact, Vetinari positively enjoys this sort of thing as it makes his life more interesting.

The fact that another of his game pieces is heading into Uberwald is just fine with him. :wink:
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Postby raisindot » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:38 pm

Wow, Pooh!

You are to be congratulated. In terms of the quantity and sheer bravado of "wild assumptions," I am but the Moist to your Gilt!

:D

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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:19 am

Which wild assumptions? :shock:
I will try to back up all my assumptions with quotes. 8)
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby swreader » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:03 am

"Tony keeps telling me that 1) you have not lost your flippin' mind; 2) that you make outrageous statements solely for the purpose of livening things up, and 3) that you have, at some point, read all the books in spite of the statements you make that bear no relation to the material in Terry's books.

But really, Pooh, you have gone too far with these last two posts which bear no resemblance to what Pratchett wrote in 5th Elephant. In the original discussion, you only said that you loved Carrot and always would, and other than that your only real statement about the book was

"I'm going to do a J-I-B and plead the Fifth (Elephant) Amendment on this discussion.I don't have much to say about it.

It's an enjoyable book, but not one I'd recommend for a first introduction to Discworld.



Your "wild assumptions" are simply wilful misstatements. For example, you said, "Carrot never resigned and never really intended to resign. "But Carrot turns over his badge, designs, insists to Vetinari that he is Mr. Iornfoundersson, not Captain. Vetinari thanks him for his services and wishes him well in his future endeavors.

Having confirmed his assumption that the absence of Angua (whom Vetirnari had specified as one of Vimes' staff) is the motive for the resignation, Vetinari then returns to calling him Captain (thus negating the acceptance of the resignation) and says that he (Vetinari) is choosing to believe that he is taking an extended leave.

The rest of your statements are equally without foundation or sense. You must know that. Why are you playing the fool? It's not funny nor does it illuminate the discussion.
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:25 am

SW, your first point re Carrot's resignation.

You cannot just resign from the Watch whenever it suits you! Carrot says so himself on the last page of the book!
If you have taken the King's Shilling, you are required to uphold the King's Peace. Period.

Are you telling me that Carrot, of all people, didn't know this!? :shock:
Carrot who knows ALL the laws of A-M!?!

It's exactly the same as in Monstrous Regiment with kissing the Duchess. Once you've joined, that's it.

But if you'd read Guards Guards and Monstrous Regiment, you'd have known that.
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:31 am

poohcarrot wrote:From the start Vetinari knew exactly what was happening in Uberwald and knew Angua's family was causing problems.

Page 33 wrote:As she (Lady Margolotta) went to blow out the candle she glanced again at the book. There was a marker in the Vs.
But...surely even the Patrician couldn't know that much...

Wow! That misstatement of mine was pretty wild and pretty wilful, I'd say! :lol:
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:43 am

poohcarrot wrote:Vetinari knew all about Gavin being in A-M and even knew which gate Angua left from.

Page 68 - Vetinari wrote:I surmise she (Angua) has been called away

Vetinari knows everything that happens in A-M.
Surmise = To guess something is true, using information you have already.
Therefore Vetinari knew about Gavin in A-M and it was this information that led him to guess that Angua had been called away.

If he hadn't known about Gavin, or he hadn't known about Angua's family being involved, he couldn't have surmised anything, because he would have had NO information.
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:02 am

poohcarrot wrote:Vetinari showed no surprise that Carrot was going to Uberwald and even gloated a bit to Drumknott that he had forced Carrot to act out of character.

Page 69 - Drumknott and Vetinari wrote:"A somewhat unexpected development, my Lord." Drumknott said quietly.
"An uncharacteristic one, certainly", said Vetinari.

This exchange can be taken more than one way. Why didn't Vetinari agree with Drumknott?

Page 69 cont. wrote:"But surely this is an emergency, sir?...What else are we to call it, sir, when a young man of such promise throws away his career for the pursuit of a girl?"
The Patrician stroked his beard and smiled at something.
"Possibly, a bonus."

So what did Vetinari smile at? Could it possibly be he smiled because his manipulations had born fruit?
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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