Are you a Vimes or Carrot (Wo)man?

Moderators: Jason, Toothy, Tonyblack

Postby swreader » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:54 am

Jeff & Dotsie I agree with your assessment of Rincewind, although I think that the Rincewind of Sourcery (especially the last part) rather more developed than he appears in most of the novels. He is, in my opinion, not so much a character (in his own right) as a device that Pratchett uses to explore the more remote areas of Discworld. And he, through the one joke quality, allows Pratchett to satirize the particular vices or follies of that location.

I have to disagree somewhat, though, about Carrot. I don't think that Pratchett allows him to develop much beyond losing the country bumpkin comic quality of GG. He tries to get him to give more complexity and understanding in F of C--which may be his best appearance I think. But when we get to 5th Elephant, my reaction is that Pratchett (for reasons I don't understand) totally changed most of his character. And it doesn't work. How do you get from the character who declares "Personal is not the same as important," to the Watch Captain who totally disregards the welfare of the city he has been so attached to. He quits weithout regard for the fact that Vimes is gone, and the character that goes with Gaspode bears no resemblance (or very little) to Carrot in the other books. While I found him funny if a bit boring in the earlier books, I got to the point of active dislike in 5th Elephant. I got there because Terry really blew it in that book--it's really three different novels loosely stitched together. The Vimes one is great and deserves more exploration, the Colon & Nobby and the rest of the Watch is funny only once, but I cannot imagine why such a good writer as Pratchett blew it with Carrot (or at least it's supposed to be Carrot) in this book.
User avatar
swreader
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:39 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.

Postby poohcarrot » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:44 am

Have to disagree with you all about Carrot in T5E.

"Personal is not the same as important"

"You can take the dwarf out of the mountain, but you can't take the mountain out of the dwarf" (That might be a quote, or I might just have made it up :roll: )

There was a distinct possibility of an out and out dwarfish civil war.
Carrot is a dwarf.
He had to go to Uberworld to try and sort out the mess. That was the "important" bit. If he hadn't tried, he wouldn't have been a dwarf. It also coincided with his girlfriend going to Uberworld, so he didn't have an option.

If he'd stayed in A-M, that would have been taking the "personal" option.

Did he stop the civil war? Yes, because he saved Vimes.

If there'd been no threat of Dwarfish civil war, he wouldn't have gone.
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
User avatar
poohcarrot
Member
 
Posts: 10425
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:11 pm
Location: NOT The land of the risen Son!!

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:06 am

The quote belongs to Jingo not TFE pooh doesn't it? :? He was quite content to stay in AM deputising for Vimes when Vetinari had made the initial selection for the 'diplomatic' team.

It was Angua going AWOL (anticipating her inclusion in that team because of Gavin) that made Carrot 'desert'.

Too early for me and I have an appointment - back later on :wink:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10597
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby poohcarrot » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:16 am

:roll: I know it's from Jingo. :roll:
I never said it was from T5E, but as SW was using it, I used it too.
Vetinari knew Carrot was going to Uberworld, didn't he? (can't be bothered to check)
How do you know it wasn't something in the fake scone investigation that made him go?
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
User avatar
poohcarrot
Member
 
Posts: 10425
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:11 pm
Location: NOT The land of the risen Son!!

Postby Bouncy Castle » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:34 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote: Carrot 'desert'.


Image
Some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them.

The rest of us are a bit crap.
User avatar
Bouncy Castle
Member
 
Posts: 12063
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: London

Postby raisindot » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:02 pm

poohcarrot wrote:There was a distinct possibility of an out and out dwarfish civil war.
Carrot is a dwarf.
He had to go to Uberworld to try and sort out the mess. That was the "important" bit. If he hadn't tried, he wouldn't have been a dwarf. It also coincided with his girlfriend going to Uberworld, so he didn't have an option.

If he'd stayed in A-M, that would have been taking the "personal" option.

Did he stop the civil war? Yes, because he saved Vimes.


Wow, how much do they pay you to be Carrot's personal publicist?

:D

Carrot never INTENDED to go to Uberwald. As Jan said, he only went there after he received the "Dear Carrot" message from Angua. And he only went to get her back--a master running after a dog who ran away. Even Vetinari knew that his mission was "personal," not "important." Otherwise, he might have said something like, "Do say hello to the Low King for me." Which he did not.

Staying in AM would NOT have been the personal option. This was his *duty.* In fact, given the potential civil war among dwarfs in AM, he had doing his duty he would have stayed in AM to make sure it didn't happen. THis would have done more to prevent the nastiness in Uberwald from spreading into AM. But he didn't. He shirked his duty. Personal was more important than "important."

While Carrot may have knocked the werewolf off of Vimes, Carrot in fact did NOT save Vimes. Angua did. To say that Carrot's knocking away of the wolf prevented the civil war makes about as much sense as saying that Inigo Skinner's slaying of the bandits stopped the civil war or that the chain mail Vimes was wearing that stopped the king's guard's blade from killing him stopped the civil war. You might as well say that Lady Margolotta stopped the civil war by keeping Vimes from falling to his death on the spiral staircase.

In any case, Carrot didn't save Vimes. Angua did. Carrot would not have found Vimes had Angua not heard the "howl" that indicated that "the game" was in progress. Angua didn't even know at first the Vimes was the prey. Carrot would never have found Vimes if Angua and the wolves hadn't led him there. And Carrot would not even have gotten there if Angua hadn't saved him from freezing to death. And Angua would have found and saved Carrot (with Gavin's aid) whether Carrot were there or not. One could argue that he slowed her down. That Carrot happened to grab the werewolf that had pounced on Vimes is a matter of who got there first. Angua would have done exactly the same thing. So, he didn't "stop the civil war". His attempt to stop Wolfgang at the castle was completely ineffective and led only to the death of Gavin.

Carrot has absolutely no interest and had absolutely no impact in solving the mess in Uberwald. How do we know this? Because Carrot was the only member of the AM party who never once met Rhys, either before the attack on the king or at the coronation.

Wouldn't one have thought that Carrot, the only member of the AM delegation who would been considered a "real dwarf" by *all* of the Uberwald dwarfs, would have been died for the chance to meet the Low King?

Instead, he chose not to go to the coronation. He tried to give the cuse that he needed to sort things out with Angua, but, in reality, he knew that he deserved absolutely no "bag of gold" at all from Rhys because he didn't deserve it.

The Carrot of TFE is not likeable or particularly effective. He is a changed man. I don't think that makes his story a lesser one. It just shows hom PTerry is willing to let his characters evolve. After all, Vimes of GG is hardly recognizable compared to the Vimes of TFE.

J-I-B
raisindot
Member
 
Posts: 3224
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA USA

Postby Tonyblack » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:07 pm

What Jeff said! :wink:
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 29055
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:20 pm

whoops things have moved on - but although Jeff's thinking along the same lines I'm coming at the personal/important dichotomy from the other direction... :wink:

poohcarrot wrote::roll: I know it's from Jingo. :roll:
I never said it was from T5E, but as SW was using it, I used it too.
Vetinari knew Carrot was going to Uberworld, didn't he? (can't be bothered to check)
How do you know it wasn't something in the fake scone investigation that made him go?

Vimes, Detritus, Cheery and Angua were selected by Vetinari as the diplomatic team on the basis that Carrot was left in charge in AM - Angua herself went AWOL with Gavin before she knew she was being sent there so Carrot was organising the Watch to find her. Then he got her note saying what she was doing and that's when he bolted after her.

If Vetinari had said Carrot had to go too and so Colon was going to end up in charge Sam would have flatly refused to go, so no, Vetinari didn't anticipate it and how could he have known about Gavin's intervention?

I think the whole 'personal is not the same as important' thing is a very subjective statement and depends on what is important. For instance having severe constipation is very personal thing indeed, but in Jingo it's not as important as missing the boat to the war in order to look for a good laxative. :P In that instance personal, (as in Angua's wolf-napping) isn't as important as leaving the city to stop the war, because it happened whilst she was on duty and in the end she was going where Carrot and the Watch was going anyway.

In TFE Angua IS more important because she doesn't go with the official delegation and she's effectively saying she's gone and (probably) won't be back - but is still going to the place Vetinari wants her to be. Carrot's faced with no Angua anywhere and so he follows her because this time personal is the need to do his duty and balancing that, when he knows the werewolf he loves is in some kind of danger because of her family, is more important to him.

Time has an effect too as he and Angua after Jingo have grown closer and also there's no real danger in leaving A-M 'unprotected' from Colon because Vetinari will not let that happen past a certain point. Plus Nobby and Colon start to cancel themselves out, without doing that much harm to the city which is of course Vetinari's priority - if there had been any real danger of a massive crime wave then Vetinari would have 'taken measures'. In TFE personal and important are reversed from what they are in Jingo leaving Carrot able to choose Angua as more important.

I'm not too convinced that Carrot still sees himself as a dwarf either - he's fully embraced his role as a policeman now, with a special knowledge of dwarf culture perhaps. This also ties in with important because he knows that the political climate in Uberwald's very unstable and if Angua's family are in the thick of that he knows that Angua will be going into a very dangerous situation and this also adds to his anxiety for her. The city's simply not the important issue in for him TFE, except that he doesn't stop to think how much of a hash Fred will make of the Watch without him and Vimes around - and even then the city will survive whilst Angua might not. For a lovelorn copper he's gonna go with his heart this time. :wink:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10597
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:37 pm

OK - read Jeff's take properly now. :) The only thing really at odds between what I'm saying and that is the dwarf situation in A-M. The thrust of my argument is what's important to Carrot, NOT to what's going down in A-M.

The city dwarves are up in arms about the murders, but the focus of the problem lies in Uberwald and Vetinari's got that pegged. If Angua had gone with Vimes then Carrot wouldn't have had to choose at all. Because she's gone with Gavin (he doesn't know the significance of Gavin at first either but he certainly see him as a rival once they meet), she's obviously in more danger which worries the hell out of Carrot - he's not just a master off to get his runaway dog back, he's a man who's really worried about the woman he loves and needs to be with her. This is further underlined by his going off after her literally at half-cock, very badly prepared for the journey and in a hell of a hurry to catch up with her. These are the actions of a man who's panicing and not thinking about anything except how get his lover back or least be with her wherever that had to be. :lol:

Vetinari's baffled by the turn of events but ultimately he'd have handled the dwarves in A-M with or without the Watch - he does have other means at his disposal after all.
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10597
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby Dotsie » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:32 pm

Another one for the "Carrot was chasing after Angua" vote, although I can say it much more succinctly :P

When he said "personal's not the same as important", do we think he really meant it? He may have seemed to at the time, but he was too late to save Angua from being hurt (plus he had hopes that she wasn't actually dead), and if memory serves, he made this statement as a reason why not to take revenge. In TFE, he needs to catch up with her before it's too late - the situation is completely different.
What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!
User avatar
Dotsie
Member
 
Posts: 9413
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:07 am

Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:50 pm

Another aspect to the situation in TFE is that at least once he's got Gaspode Carrot knows that Angua has gone off with a potential rival - he may be prepared to let her deal with being kidnapped but here where she might choose someone else over him he reacts in a stereotypically jealous way.
"when the gods made sheep they must've left their brains in their other coat"
User avatar
Doughnut Jimmy
Member
 
Posts: 1472
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:51 pm

Postby raisindot » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:57 pm

The real question is: Did Carrot ever really know WHY Angua left before he left AM? All we know is that he got a note of some kind, that I always presumed to be simply a "Dear Carrot" letter, i.e., "I'm breaking up with you and am leaving the city." He chased after her not because he was worried that she would get killed or that she would get herself involved in dangerous Uberwaldian activities, (he had never worried about that before), but because he simply couldn't accept her breaking up with him without him at least knowing why. Remember that she had to tell *him* about what was going on in Uberwald when he finally caught up to her. His pursuit was that of a lover unable to accept his lover leaving him without a reason (remember that Carrot is an extremely logical and literal man).

So, my read is that Carrot dropped his duty to protect the security of AM because he wanted to get his girl/dog back. Pure and simple.

And as far as Vetinari being able to handle a dwarfish civil war by his own means, that's questionable. After all, he always depended on Vimes and the Watch to kill dragons, find the clown-assassin, and stop the war in Klatch. He couldn't protect himself from being arrested for attempted murder in "The Truth." He relied on Vimes to stop the fracas between the trolls and dwards in Thud!. So, without either Vimes or Carrot there, the regular criminals might lay low, but any dwarfish civil war that broke out would have been difficult for a man who had a very small personal guard and who did not necessarily have military authority (and who would trust Lord Rust to put down such a civil war?)

Boy, this all really belongs in the TFE forum doesn't it. Wish we had all said this stuff back then!

:D

J-I-B
raisindot
Member
 
Posts: 3224
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA USA

Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:08 pm

Re Angua's note I'd assumed it was a - I've got some family business to take care of so got to go away for awhile - type. Will have to go back to the book and see if there's any clues.

Edit:
As far as I can see from the book there's no mention of Angua leaving Carrot any message at all.
"when the gods made sheep they must've left their brains in their other coat"
User avatar
Doughnut Jimmy
Member
 
Posts: 1472
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:51 pm

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:43 pm

There was definitely a communication of sorts but I haven't got the book handy atm - I think it's probably mentioned in the main debate thread though
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10597
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby raisindot » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:33 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:There was definitely a communication of sorts but I haven't got the book handy atm - I think it's probably mentioned in the main debate thread though


Page 95, Korgi paperback edition. Constable Visit receives a message carried by one of Angua's pigeons addressed to "Captain Carrot, Personal." He gives it personally to Carrot, who once he reads it, calls in Colon to tell him he's in charge and proceeds immediately to tell Vetinari he is resigning, not merely taking a holiday.

Until this time, Angua had been gone for at least a day and Carrot made no effort to pursue her, so he wasn't overly concerned for her safety. Something in the note (whose contents are never revealed) convinced him to give up everything to go find her. If she just said she was going to settle some family business and would be back soon, he wouldn't have left. It must have been something to the effect of a breaking up note without an explanation, for had she given one, he would have accepted its logic and stayed put.

J-I-B
raisindot
Member
 
Posts: 3224
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA USA

PreviousNext

Return to Discworld novels

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests