Maskerade Discussion *Spoilers*

Moderators: Jason, Toothy, Tonyblack

Postby raisindot » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:55 pm

Tonyblack wrote:You have two weeks to read or reread Monstrous Regiment for the discussion starting on Monday 6th September. :D


Looking very forward to this one. It may make the debates about "Pyramids" and "Maskerade" seem downright civilized by comparison.

:D

J-I-B
raisindot
Member
 
Posts: 3216
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA USA

Postby mystmoon » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:11 pm

*Goes to find someplace to hide*
"Why is that gas stove wearing a hat?"
"He's going out"
Image
User avatar
mystmoon
Member
 
Posts: 1451
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:52 am
Location: York, England, Europe, Earth, The Solar System, Milky Way, The Universe

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:55 pm

J-I-B wrote: It may make the debates about "Pyramids" and "Maskerade" seem downright civilized by comparison.


I thought we'd been quite civilised for us in this thread (pooh's been pretty quiet for starters :P ) - we were far more 'frisky' in Carpe Jugulam I thought :twisted:

I don't like Polly too much (just not as much as I don't like Moist :lol: ) so I agree that MR could be quite interesting... :wink:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10585
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby raisindot » Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:11 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:
J-I-B wrote: It may make the debates about "Pyramids" and "Maskerade" seem downright civilized by comparison.


I thought we'd been quite civilised for us in this thread (pooh's been pretty quiet for starters :P ) - we were far more 'frisky' in Carpe Jugulam I thought :twisted:


You're right. The CJ discussion was far more hot-blooded (is there a correlation between the number of total comments in a thread and its relative friskiness?). This one's been quite civil. My first comment about "MR" will be that although I really disliked it the first read, the second time through (when I listened to Stephen Brigg's excellent audiobook performance) I appreciated it a lot more.

J-I-B
raisindot
Member
 
Posts: 3216
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA USA

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:30 pm

Well I don't do audio so I wouldn't know. :D

This'll be the 3rd reading for me and No. 2 was better than the first, so maybe it'll grow on me, but Terry's 'done' his great anti-war book with Jingo and in MR, for me, he's trying too hard - but I will expand on or apologise for that attitude in a fortnight! :wink:
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Jan Van Quirm
Member
 
Posts: 10585
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Dunheved, Kernow

Postby Tonyblack » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:02 pm

Let's try and save the comments for the discussion. :wink: Although I have to add that, I like MR the more I read it. I really didn't care much for it the first time. :)
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28998
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:22 am

You now have just one week to read or reread Monstrous Regiment for the discussion starting on Monday 6th September. :)
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28998
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Finomans » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:12 pm

I haven't finished reading Maskerade yet, But this morning I just came past something that I Think could possibly be a Monty Python reference.

'Sharing the same gutter in the back streets of Ankh-Morpork, kind of
thing?' said Nanny, in an understanding voice.
'Gutter? In those days you had to put your name down and wait five years
for a gutter,' said Henry. 'We thought people in gutters were nobs. We
shared a drain. With two other families. And a man who juggled eels.'


I think it look a bit like the four Yorkshire men sketch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
goat who is this goat
User avatar
Finomans
Member
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:04 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Postby Tonyblack » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:53 pm

I'm sure you are right. :wink:
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
User avatar
Tonyblack
Moderator
 
Posts: 28998
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Postby Finomans » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:42 pm

My dad just told me that it's even older it's actually from the At Last The 1948 Show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtSw3daGoo

with half of the Python gang. The other half was in Do Not Adjust your set
goat who is this goat
User avatar
Finomans
Member
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:04 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Postby CJDobs » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:19 pm

KWESTA?!? MALADETTA?!?!?!


!


Ball bouncingly funny book. With some amazingly clever typography jokes.


:lol:
User avatar
CJDobs
Member
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:29 pm

Re: Maskerade Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby RolandItwasntmyfault » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:28 pm

Um... I feel free to comment in this old thread (as in others perhaps, too, but not all of once, of course).

Maskerade...

Well, I am no opera fan and have never been to opera.
At first reading it was a rather weak book, I got some jokes, at second reading (this time in English), I got al lot more jokes and nevertheless it is still a flaw in the whitch series, I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed or actually like it on the same scale as I like Witches Abroad or Moving Pictures. There is not as much depth as I like in other (later or in some cases earlier) books but I like it on a smaller level.

Some Postings above there was mentioned, to dress up as Lady Esmerelda would bee out of charakter for Granny. And there were given some reasons why this not has to be the case. One though which occured for me while reading this postings was: Perhaps she is dressing up because "it has to go the right way", as Granny usually is firm on. If an evil duke sits in Lancre Castle, you not simply rush in to dispose him, you have to wait until the rightful heir of the throne turns up, if a whole city is bond to stories you not simply can abort the stories, you has to change them in the right way. So perhaps, it would also fit to say: If you want to go in the opera house and want to change what is going on so you have to do it the right way, this means dressing up in proper dressing an, well, go in the opera house.
Just a though, perhaps a tiny bit, perhaps I could be wrong. Personally I sympathize with the explanation to have a reason to fritter Nanny's money away, rootet in Granny's disapproval of the cooking book and more so that she is "the Lancre Whitch" - who else? ;)
(But I don't want chewing up this theme again and wouldn't persist on this observations).


Another question, I don't know if this anywhere else already is mentioned, but it reminded me immediately by first reading it. I didn't find it at the annotation file on l-space, I don't even know, if this reference is known or popular enough in UK, although I know that Terry knows many things and popular culture also from outside UK:

Two details in the novel reminded me at the Olsen Gang, a danish criminal comedy. In one episode (The Olsen Gang Sees Red) there is a very popular scene in which the gang has to drill, hammer and bomb its way through the basement of the Royal Danish theatre. This because "the musicians hate the actors, the actors hate the singers, the singers hate the ballet dancers and all together hate the conductor" (or some similar statement) and therefore they have very thicks walls between their dressing rooms, recreation rooms and so on - through which each the gang has to break to get ther target (a ming vase).
The gang suceed in drilling, hammering and drilling in tact to the music of Elverhoi which has been played at this moment.

Now in maskerade there are two sequences which reminded me immediately at this episode. In one sequence Sarzella (?) says somethin very similar along the lines "the musicians hate the actors, actors hate the singers and all together hate the conductor".
And then the second sequence: Nanny explains that one of her son once had stolen the lead off the roof of the opera house - managing this while also hammering in tact to the music which has been played at this moment.

Coincidence?
Simply because this is such a obvious theme that you don't can pass it while writing a parody on opera?

Perhaps the saying "X hate the Y and all together hate the Z" is a common saying which everywhere will fit?

Or did Terry actually know this famous scene which is even mentioned in the English Wikipedia?
"A thousand elephants!" (Moving Pictures)
"Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." (Hogfather)
User avatar
RolandItwasntmyfault
Member
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:01 am
Location: Much (near Bonn and Cologne), Germany

Re: Maskerade Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby meerkat » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:19 pm

Hi, having had a cousin who worked in the Covent Garden Opera house for forty years, and I have often been found sitting in the stage door area for the last thirty, I can quite happily confirm that: yes,

the musicians really can hate the actors (or walk on parts)
the actors (walk on parts) really can hate the singers
if the band/musicians take against the conductor you can get a night of music you would certainly have wanted to miss!
I have heard a recording of an opera,which shall go nameless for it's own good, where there was a lot of 'fueding' backstage and believe me it WAS bad! I would have wanted my money back had I been in the audience.

Oh, ... and the backstage technicians hate Everybody!

or as it's known... a good night out for everyone.

Sir pTerry probably had this story related to him. ;)
Just a meerkat from The Effing Forest
User avatar
meerkat
Member
 
Posts: 13475
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Wilberfoss East Riding Yorkshire

Re: Maskerade Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby =Tamar » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:09 am

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote: I enjoyed or actually like it on the same scale as I like Witches Abroad or Moving Pictures. There is not as much depth as I like in other (later or in some cases earlier) books but I like it on a smaller level.

There are different kinds of depth. Maskerade is about masks, layers of personality. Almost everyone in it is in disguise one way or another, wearing masks either metaphorical or physical. Nanny Ogg wore the mask of "A Lancre Witch". Agnes originally chose the mask of Perdita, which took on a life of its own; she taught herself to disguise where her voice was coming from. Later Agnes is required to disguise herself behind another. I think every major character is disguised somehow, even when they are as obvious as Nobby and Colon. Nanny gets a peek behind Granny's masks when she learns some things about Granny that she hadn't known even after sixty-odd years of friendship. The opera house itself is masked by a false front.

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote: Perhaps she is dressing up because "it has to go the right way", as Granny usually is firm on. If an evil duke sits in Lancre Castle, you not simply rush in to dispose him, you have to wait until the rightful heir of the throne turns up, if a whole city is bond to stories you not simply can abort the stories, you has to change them in the right way. So perhaps, it would also fit to say: If you want to go in the opera house and want to change what is going on so you have to do it the right way, this means dressing up in proper dressing and, well, go in the opera house.


I agree, that is part of her motive for doing it. Earlier, in Equal Rites, Granny taught Esk that the hat is the job, in a way. You dress for the part. However, there is a side of Granny that she doesn't express much, that she keeps masked. She really likes fine clothing. In Wyrd Sisters Granny is tempted to try on the crown. In Witches Abroad, Granny and Nanny "borrow" the correct clothing for the event and very briefly act out upper-class manners. When she has a good reason to dress up, she enjoys it, even if she has to pretend to herself that she's just making good use of second-hand clothing that happens to have a red lining. (I think that was in Equal Rites.)

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote:Just a though, perhaps a tiny bit, perhaps I could be wrong. Personally I sympathize with the explanation to have a reason to fritter Nanny's money away, rooted in Granny's disapproval of the cooking book and more so that she is "the Lancre Witch" - who else? ;)


I agree; I think that's another side that Granny doesn't admit to very often.

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote: Two details in the novel reminded me at the Olsen Gang, a danish criminal comedy. In one episode (The Olsen Gang Sees Red) there is a very popular scene in which the gang has to drill, hammer and bomb its way through the basement of the Royal Danish theatre. This because "the musicians hate the actors, the actors hate the singers, the singers hate the ballet dancers and all together hate the conductor" (or some similar statement) and therefore they have very thicks walls between their dressing rooms, recreation rooms and so on - through which each the gang has to break to get their target (a ming vase).
The gang succeed in drilling, hammering and drilling in tact to the music of Elverhoi which has been played at this moment.

Now in maskerade there are two sequences which reminded me immediately at this episode. In one sequence Sarzella (?) says something very similar along the lines "the musicians hate the actors, actors hate the singers and all together hate the conductor".
And then the second sequence: Nanny explains that one of her son once had stolen the lead off the roof of the opera house - managing this while also hammering in tact to the music which has been played at this moment.

Coincidence?
Simply because this is such a obvious theme that you don't can pass it while writing a parody on opera?

Perhaps the saying "X hate the Y and all together hate the Z" is a common saying which everywhere will fit?

Or did Terry actually know this famous scene which is even mentioned in the English Wikipedia?


Sir Terry has said that he always looks for at least three examples of anything he uses so as to be sure it's a common-enough idea, so I believe there may be at least two other examples for any allusion. That doesn't mean that he didn't refer to the Olsen Gang story. The sequence from the Olsen Gang line is very close. I think that a series of statements like that is fairly common in humor. I remember something like that from a comic song of the 1960s by Tom Lehrer National Brotherhood Week, and another one by the Kingston Trio The Merry Minuet (better known as They're Rioting in Africa ).

The second sequence, making noise in time to the music, may also be related to the Olsen Gang story. The fact that there are two possible allusions in the same book makes both of them more convincing to me. The extra-thick walls could be related to the extremely thick wall between Agnes's side of the room and Christine's side of the room.
=Tamar
Member
 
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 1:16 am

Re: Maskerade Discussion *Spoilers*

Postby =Tamar » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:11 am

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote: I enjoyed or actually like it on the same scale as I like Witches Abroad or Moving Pictures. There is not as much depth as I like in other (later or in some cases earlier) books but I like it on a smaller level.

There are different kinds of depth. Maskerade is about masks, layers of personality. Almost everyone in it is in disguise one way or another, wearing masks either metaphorical or physical. Nanny Ogg wore the mask of "A Lancre Witch". Agnes originally chose the mask of Perdita, which took on a life of its own; she taught herself to disguise where her voice was coming from. Later Agnes is required to disguise herself behind another. I think every major character is disguised somehow, even when they are as obvious as Nobby and Colon. Nanny gets a peek behind Granny's masks when she learns some things about Granny that she hadn't known even after sixty-odd years of friendship. The opera house itself is masked by a false front.

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote: Perhaps she is dressing up because "it has to go the right way", as Granny usually is firm on. If an evil duke sits in Lancre Castle, you not simply rush in to dispose him, you have to wait until the rightful heir of the throne turns up, if a whole city is bond to stories you not simply can abort the stories, you has to change them in the right way. So perhaps, it would also fit to say: If you want to go in the opera house and want to change what is going on so you have to do it the right way, this means dressing up in proper dressing and, well, go in the opera house.


I agree, that is part of her motive for doing it. Earlier, in Equal Rites, Granny taught Esk that the hat is the job, in a way. You dress for the part. However, there is a side of Granny that she doesn't express much, that she keeps masked. She really likes fine clothing. In Wyrd Sisters Granny is tempted to try on the crown. In Witches Abroad, Granny and Nanny "borrow" the correct clothing for the event and very briefly act out upper-class manners. When she has a good reason to dress up, she enjoys it, even if she has to pretend to herself that she's just making good use of second-hand clothing that happens to have a red lining. (I think that was in Equal Rites.)

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote:Just a though, perhaps a tiny bit, perhaps I could be wrong. Personally I sympathize with the explanation to have a reason to fritter Nanny's money away, rooted in Granny's disapproval of the cooking book and more so that she is "the Lancre Witch" - who else? ;)


I agree; I think that's another side that Granny doesn't admit to very often.

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote: Two details in the novel reminded me at the Olsen Gang, a danish criminal comedy. In one episode (The Olsen Gang Sees Red) there is a very popular scene in which the gang has to drill, hammer and bomb its way through the basement of the Royal Danish theatre. This because "the musicians hate the actors, the actors hate the singers, the singers hate the ballet dancers and all together hate the conductor" (or some similar statement) and therefore they have very thicks walls between their dressing rooms, recreation rooms and so on - through which each the gang has to break to get their target (a ming vase).
The gang succeed in drilling, hammering and drilling in tact to the music of Elverhoi which has been played at this moment.

Now in maskerade there are two sequences which reminded me immediately at this episode. In one sequence Sarzella (?) says something very similar along the lines "the musicians hate the actors, actors hate the singers and all together hate the conductor".
And then the second sequence: Nanny explains that one of her son once had stolen the lead off the roof of the opera house - managing this while also hammering in tact to the music which has been played at this moment.

Coincidence?
Simply because this is such a obvious theme that you don't can pass it while writing a parody on opera?

Perhaps the saying "X hate the Y and all together hate the Z" is a common saying which everywhere will fit?

Or did Terry actually know this famous scene which is even mentioned in the English Wikipedia?


Sir Terry has said that he always looks for at least three examples of anything he uses so as to be sure it's a common-enough idea, so I believe there may be at least two other examples for any allusion. That doesn't mean that he didn't refer to the Olsen Gang story. The sequence from the Olsen Gang line is very close. I think that a series of statements like that is fairly common in humor. I remember something like that from a comic song of the 1960s by Tom Lehrer National Brotherhood Week, and another one by the Kingston Trio The Merry Minuet (sometimes known as They're Rioting in Africa).

The second sequence, making noise in time to the music, may also be related to the Olsen Gang story. The fact that there are two possible allusions in the same book makes both of them more convincing to me. The extra-thick walls could be related to the extremely thick wall between Agnes's side of the room and Christine's side of the room.
=Tamar
Member
 
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 1:16 am

PreviousNext

Return to Discworld novels

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests