Wintersmith Discussion *Spoilers*

[poohcarrot]

I think the Bogles represent Sir Pterry's disease;

I hate things that try to take away what you are. I want to kill those things, Mr Anybody. I want to kill all of them. When you take away memories, you take away the person. Everything they are.

[Ponder Stibbons]

Very likely. Certainly gives the same creepy effect and in the same way when you think about it.

I think the feegles represent all her emotions; bravery(rob), fear(daft wully), thoughtfullness(gonagle), in-charge/jan-ness(hamish), etc. and all are presided over by fear.

[swreader]

Like everyone else thus far, this is not my favorite book but after 3 or 4 reads I think it has some quite good parts. I also think, however, that this is the first book in which Terry's Alzheimer's shows up in various ways. For one thing, it's not nearly as well written as the earlier books (eg. Horace the humming cheese is a totally unnecessary and not very useful intrusion, IMHO).

And Pooh, Tiffany DOES NOT knowingly create a sentient being as far as I can tell. She simply creates various cheeses among which is a Lancre blue. It does seem to have unusual veining--and activities, but there's no indication that she tried to do that.

And why isn't Horace painted black like all the other cheeses?

[poohcarrot]

Like everyone else thus far, this is not my favorite book but after 3 or 4 reads I think it has some quite good parts. I also think, however, that this is the first book in which Terry's Alzheimer's shows up in various ways. For one thing, it's not nearly as well written as the earlier books (eg. Horace the humming cheese is a totally unnecessary and not very useful intrusion, IMHO).

And Pooh, Tiffany DOES NOT knowingly create a sentient being as far as I can tell. She simply creates various cheeses among which is a Lancre blue. It does seem to have unusual veining--and activities, but there's no indication that she tried to do that.

And why isn't Horace painted black like all the other cheeses?

Everyone seems to be agreeing with everyone.

But....did I say that Tiffany knowingly created a sentinent cheese?
Did BP knowingly create a big oil slick?

[swreader]

But....did I say that Tiffany knowingly created a sentinent cheese?
Did BP knowingly create a big oil slick?

Well, Pooh, you judge your own statement. I see no other way to interpret what you said except that you are saying she knowingly created a sentient being--and that she is the only one except one of the Igors to have created life in Discworld. It's nitpicking, I know. But what can you expect from a retired English Professor

Tiffany created Horace - a sentinent living thing. Apart from Igor, who else has created life in Discworld? (and I don't mean in the usual way )

And of course British Petroleum is trying to duck responsibility for the deaths of eleven people on the rig and limit its liabilitiy by saying that the deaths and the accident are the responsiblity of the company they hired.

British Petroleum is weasling by trying to say they'll pay for the oil damage. But the fact remains that they are responsible for the pollution of our Gulf Coast, the destruction of the wetlands, the probable deaths of millions of fish, birds, sea mammals and their habitat destruction, as well as taking away the livilihood of millions of people, and possibly introducing oil pollution into the Atlantic. How do you put a price tag on that?

Nonetheless, they're going to be on the hook for billions!!! of dollars. So the answer to your question about whether they knowingly created an oil slick (from the legal point of view) is that they knew or should have known (negligence test) that what they and the company they hired was doing was dangerously liable to create exactly what it did.

[poohcarrot]

So if Horace gets hold of a gonne and goes on a killing spree, it will all be Tiffany's fault (negligence test).

As for BP, they are well and truly screwed, already their shares have fallen 15%.

So the US, with the help of the UK, invades Iraq FOR oil.
Then the US, with the help of the UK, is invaded WITH oil.

[Jan Van Quirm]

Well at least the Exxon Valdez spill up in Alaska was an all-American gig and look how Exxon wriggled and jiggled over culpability on their own doorstep...

This isn't the first oil spill in the Gulf, it won't be the last, and there'll always be a lot of screaming over who's to blame and has to cough up no matter which company or parent company is involved or where they're based

Remind me how the creation of fictional sentient cheese relates to negligent oil corporations not taking the blame for their sub-contractors inadequate H&S features?

[Tonyblack]

Interesting as this is - can we try and keep this discussion on topic please?

There's a thread elsewhere discussing the oil spill.

[poohcarrot]

I agree with Tony.

You naughty wimin should stick to topic.

So Wintersmith is......um.......er.....I can't think of anything else to say about it. Can someone raise an interesting point, please?

[Jan Van Quirm]

You naughty wimin should stick to topic.

Git!

Interesting point? *looks back* OK then - Tiffany. So pooh's saying she's got Carrot Syndrome, in reverse, already in the 1st 2 books but is being annoyingly girlie and silly in this. In short she's a teenager so she's supposed to be silly whilst being totally obsessed with living up to her already massive rep as a precociously powerful witch and general 'nice' little girl...?

Quite a lot for an almost 13 year old to deal with, but I'd far rather Terry had just given her acne like most other kids. I do like the Feegles more and more (having hated them at first like everyone in Carpe Jugulum).

Another 'thing' is that Terry doesn't really do romance that well and so I suppose that's why, with Tiffany's attraction to the Wintersmith, I get this hugely nauseating mental image that I thought had been buried forever of one of my friends making cow eyes at a Donny Osmond poster.... Actually that was an important moment for me as I decided I'd never make teenybopper status ( I was far too busy making cow eyes at David Bowie - but at least he was an adult more or less )

Killing the Winter with a kiss was a good mettyfor though

[poohcarrot]

She's suposed to be silly when she's 8, not 13. It's like she's physically grown older, but mentally regressed.

Ooh! I've just thought of something.
Was it Death in the boat? He was a skeleton, he spoke like Death, and I know Death can be everywhere at once, but it didn't feel like the actual Discworld Death.

[mystmoon]

Do different dimensions have a different Death? Although Death gets his moey "in pairs" so maybe he does do the ferryman's job to get paid

[Jan Van Quirm]

She's suposed to be silly when she's 8, not 13. It's like she's physically grown older, but mentally regressed.

Ooh! I've just thought of something.
Was it Death in the boat? He was a skeleton, he spoke like Death, and I know Death can be everywhere at once, but it didn't feel like the actual Discworld Death.

What planet do you live on again pooh? 13 year old girls are monstrous little hormonal termagants with colossal mood swings and a serious mirror addiction (whether or not they have acne) and massive mobile/cell dependencies. I'd love to see how you're handling your daughters when they get to that age - enjoy them when they're properly silly and sweet and think their dad's a big hero

It was Death in his Otherworld aspect of course - he goes all over and out of Discworld (in Reaperman and in Thief of Time) including Cori Celesti and the reaction to the Feegles is fairly typical of him I think. Maybe it's another small tailoring for young adults that makes him less 'punchy'?

[swreader]

One of the things which Terry does brilliantly (having gone through the teenage years with his own daughter) is to create a Tiffany who bounces back and forth between 4 and 34--a phenomenon characteristic in the teen age female of the species. We saw the first hints of this toward the end of Hat Full of Sky when Tiffany simultaneously sees herself as The Worst Person in the World and because she/hiver stole the old man's money and "killed" Miss Level--a melodramatic tragedienne.

If she doesn't understand why she danced or what makes it so significant, it's because she herself is changing physically and in her perceptions. She's disappointed that none of the other girls noticed the Tiffany shaped snowflakes, but still scared (not of Wintersmith) of Anagramma. But the Tiffany of the end of the book who demands the reckoning from Granny is a mature witch who has accepted the burdens of an adult and the powers of a witch.

Jan, you're absolutely right. Pooh obviously lives on Mars. I thought the "Carrot theory" was nonsense before when he brought it up in CJ and this book is a perfect example of that. I must admit that there were times I wanted to shake Tiffany until her teeth rattled, but that's the nature of teenagers--especially girls. There are a number of problems--jumbled or incomplete development, for example, with this book--but Tiffany's character is not one of them.

Roland, on the other hand, is not a good depiction of a teenage boy--and his character is little more than a deus ex machina because Terry is trying to do too much. Roland deserves better development, even if he's having to play the part of a hero. As it is, he is far too much only a silly boy.

As mentioned elsewhere, I think that Roland's fight against the Bogles and the real hatred he expresses is coming in large part from Terry's growing awareness of the progress of his disease. It seems to me that he tries to do too many different things, different story lines, in this book--and they don't fit together well, and none are completely developed. It's a problem that continues to grow worse in Making Money.

[Tonyblack]

I like Roland in this one. This is the biggest development of his character in the series and he's growing into a likeable chap. The Feegles, in teaching him to be a hero, seem to have turned him into a man. I wish that Terry had written what happened when he got back as I suspect he gave his aunts a serious talking to.

I'm not sure about Carrot Syndrome - although I do agree that it does exist with Carrot. We see a new side to Granny in this book (who'd have thought she'd be a cat person? ) and I think there is more room for development there.

Tiffany is certainly going through changes that would probably explain a lot about her behaviour, but as far as dancing with the Wintersmith is concerned - this isn't so much her being stupid as (as Granny explains to Miss Tick) the resonance of the Chalk that is very much part of Tiffany, vibrating with the changes of the seasons. Granny points out just how important a witch Tiffany is to the Chalk, mainly because she is the ONLY witch the Chalk has.