Carpe Jugulum Discussion *spoilers*

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Postby raisindot » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:57 am

swreader wrote: But it is important to consider what Escrow stands for and why it let itself be used as well as how it fits into the whole of the book.

I hope that you all are ready to stop re-hashing Granny and turn to other elements of the book by now. I'll have much more to say later (as will Tony I'm sure).


Can't abide people tellin' others when to stop re-rehashing Granny. We'll stop re-hashing Granny when we're good and ready to stop re-hashing Granny and not a moment before. :lol:

But your comments about much of this being Pterry's commentary on ethnic cleansing and the subservience of populations to charismatic leaders is spot on. Escrow is a microcosm of cities (and countries) that through fear and force, become sheeplike in their obedience. There is nothing cowardly about this--it's as basic as human nature and probably embedded in our 'selfish genes.'

BTW, am I missing something about you and Tony? You're in Tucson, he spends some of this time in Tucson. Out of the handful of Yank DW participants on this board, two of them are in Arizona? Is this a coincidence or something totally more sinister? :o

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:01 pm

Tony's British and divides his time between Cardiff and Tucson. It's something to do with a wedding band I think :wink:
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:15 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:In fact - let's try it your way a minute because you may be onto why Carpe Jugulam is the last of the Coven books (so far) - Granny just got so perfect and powerful that nobody was ever going to be able to beat her and so maybe TERRY GOT BORED WITH THE OLD BAG because she'd have had nowhere else to go in terms of excellence. which in turn makes it all too easy and trite for her. How do heroes get to be heroes without a little bit of adversity along the way? She has to work for it a little bit else it's all "yeah, yeah she's Granny and when's the next joke coming up Terry?" :roll:


ABSURD THEORY #3

Carrot Syndrome

All DW characters develop and evolve until they are perfect.
Once perfection has been attained, if the character persists as a main character, they start to become tiresome eg; Carrot (hence the syndrome's name)
Once perfection has been attained, the character is relegated to a bit -part player.

I believe the following characters will never have another starring role in any DW novel;

Carrot
Sam Vimes
Nobby
Colon
Granny Weatherwax
Magrat
Susan
Lu-Tse
William De Worde
Rincewind
Death

Carrot Syndrome explains why I didn't like Making Money. After Going Postal, the Moist character did not develop & evolve. The Moist at the end of Going Postal was a better Moist than at the end of Making Money.

(And I wouldn't be surprised if there were no Nac Mac Feegles in "I shall wear midnight.")
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:20 pm

You forgot Vetinari 8) :P Bit of bias creeping in there perhaps? :wink:

OK - yet again I agree the Carrot syndrome except some of your list still have flaws which means they're not done with just yet

Carrot
Sam Vimes - barely in control reformed alkie with psychopathic leanings
Nobby - not human and still shoving

Colon
Granny Weatherwax - almost unlovable, ridiculously proud and unrequited lurve interest of Ridcully... :lol:
Magrat
Susan
Lu-Tse - Nooooooooooo! :shock: Terry has a deep-seated need to muck about with Time and Lu-Tse is his catalyst
William De Worde
Rincewind - coward 'screamer' & can do accidental magic occasionally
Death - has always been a bit player even when he was the 'star'. The duty is always there even if he gets 'help' in so he's a keeper

Can we get back to the book now please? *yawns* :roll:
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:30 pm

raisindot wrote:
swreader wrote: I hope that you all are ready to stop re-hashing Granny and turn to other elements of the book by now. I'll have much more to say later (as will Tony I'm sure).


Can't abide people tellin' others when to stop re-rehashing Granny. We'll stop re-hashing Granny when we're good and ready to stop re-hashing Granny and not a moment before. :lol:
J-I-B


Sorry SW, have to agree with J-I-B there (much as I don't want to) :roll: :lol:

You can't take a break, come back and then tell us to stop re-hashing Granny. We're enjoying re-hashing Granny. There is no time limit on this discussion and Wintersmith isn't that wonderful (IMO)

But before we move onto the genocide aspects of the book, just how many deaths have been caused by the occupation of Iraq? Do you believe the Lancet figures?
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:38 pm

I love Lu-Tse, but if he was the star again I can't see it being as good.

I didn't miss Vetinari out because he still has potential as a solo book star. So does Nanny Ogg.

Vimes was a drunk in the gutter with two men under his control. He's now the Earl of Ankh with a lot of people under his control, has survived a "hiver-type" attack and resolved Koom Valley. What's next? :?
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:44 pm

Jason (or Batty if you're looking in!) can we have a strangling smiley purr-lease?! :evil:

We have already (gods so many times :roll: ), can and will argue again and again about Iraq somewhere else - that's purely business politics and nothing to do with genocide or extermination per se :x :lol:
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:14 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:... that's purely business politics and nothing to do with genocide or extermination per se :x :lol:


So I take it you haven't seen WikiLeaks April 5, ten days ago, then.
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Postby raisindot » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:13 pm

poohcarrot wrote:ABSURD THEORY #3

Carrot Syndrome

All DW characters develop and evolve until they are perfect.
Once perfection has been attained, if the character persists as a main character, they start to become tiresome eg; Carrot (hence the syndrome's name)


Wow...I'm agreeing with Pooh TWICE in this thread. Scary. :o

Wonder if it's not so much about the character achieving perfection but more about the main character reaching his or her "Alexandrian state," i.e., by the last book in the series the main character has won such a decisive victory over an extremely difficult obstacle that, short of outright apocalypse, there are no more narrative empires to conquer?

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:52 pm

poohcarrot wrote:
Jan Van Quirm wrote:... that's purely business politics and nothing to do with genocide or extermination per se :x :lol:


So I take it you haven't seen WikiLeaks April 5, ten days ago, then.

You are correct in your assumption, but let me take a wild guess - one faction's getting their kicks in like Saddam did with the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs. No change there.

If it's 'Collateral Murder' you're talking about, time for me to word-chop :roll: That's indiscriminate 'peacekeeping' target practice by a singularly insensitive capitalist oppessive army of occupation - genocide is a tad more specific than that and tends to take more people out at a time :(
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Postby raisindot » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:55 pm

Umm, ummm, ummm, trying to distract from the "politics"....

:shock:

What about the phoenixes? I never quite got how there came to be two of them in the story...I thought there was only the one that the falconer found which became the wowhawk with the hood. Was there another one flying around in the action? That whole thing got me very confused, which is not hard to do.

And, speaking of birds, what was it with all the magpie counting rhymes (One for a....). Is this a reference to some kind of folklore or whatnot?

:lol:

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:24 pm

Thanks for the distraction tactics Jeff :wink:

It's a nursery rhyme kind of thing - the one I know is Perdita's

One for sorrow, two for joy.
Three for a girl, four for a boy,
Five for silver, six for gold
Seven for a secret never to be told


There's more but I can't bothered to look for it. :oops: :P It's also generally considered unlucky to see only one magpie at a time and in fact this is generally quite rare as magpies pair bond for life, so it's unusual for only one to be spotted, with fledglings very often joining large flocks with other singletons.

With the phoenix - as Granny said to Hodgesaargh! there'd be no eggs at all if there was only ever one phoenix at a time (so yet again Discworld departs from Roundworld tradition) and she talks about seeing several phoenixes (sp?) flying in the mountains in childhood. The proof in CJ is shown when they find the eggshell - far too much shell for just the one egg
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:04 pm

If ever I see only one magpie, I bow. Well, I used to bow, but haven't actually seen one for a while. :P

The rhyme that Jan quoted is the one from the TV series "Magpie". I used to know a different one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWqXZEngVc8
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:52 pm

:lol: That's how I remember it, tune and all! :P The rhyme's much older though and there are more verses which of course I now need to find... :roll: :wink:

And here they are, with the remainder of the modern version 1st -
wiki wrote:Eight for a wish
Nine for a kiss
Ten for a bird you must not miss

[edit] Origins
The rhyme has its origins in superstitions connected with magpies, considered a bird of ill omen in some cultures, and in England, at least as far back as the early sixteenth century. The rhyme was first recorded around 1780 in a note in John Brand's Observations on Popular Antiquitites on Lincolnshire with the lyric:

One for sorrow,
Two for mirth,
Three for a wedding,
And four for death.[1]
One of the earliest versions to extend this was published, with variations, in M. A. Denham's Proverbs and Popular Saying of the Seasons (1846):

One for sorrow,
Two for luck; (varia mirth)
Three for a wedding,
Four for death; (varia birth)
Five for silver,
Six for gold;
Seven for a secret,
Not to be told;
Eight for heaven,
Nine for [hell]
And ten for the d[evi]l's own sell!

So the latter is Nanny's version :wink:
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Postby raisindot » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:55 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:With the phoenix - as Granny said to Hodgesaargh! there'd be no eggs at all if there was only ever one phoenix at a time (so yet again Discworld departs from Roundworld tradition) and she talks about seeing several phoenixes (sp?) flying in the mountains in childhood. The proof in CJ is shown when they find the eggshell - far too much shell for just the one egg


No, I get that part. What I don't get is on page 371 of the Josh Kirby paperback edition Oats sees the hooded bird suddenly "flash" and the fly door the moor. Then, on page 373, "the wowhawk fluttered down and settled on her [Granny's] wrist." A few lines later, Oats says, "That's the other phoenix, isn't it?" Granny affirms this.

My question is: Are these two birds the same phoenix? If not, if one is the one one that hatched and hid in Hodgesarggh's hut, where did the other one [the one that had the extra eggshell] come from? Never understood that part.

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