FE = Fifth Elephant
WA = Witches Abroad
Yes that's it - thanks Tony
J-I-B - you're usually so authoritative I thought you'd get the usual shorthand for the book titles as I'm sure I've seen you use them yourself occasionally....
raisindot wrote:There's no DW book that I can think of that raises the issue of trolls hating dwarfs because dwarfs break apart 'inorganic' rocks and stones for their livelihood (if there is, please kindly point to it and I will retract this statement).
I can't and you know I can't because there aren't any!
This is what I mean about the 'true' Trolls - there's so little written about them apart from in Colour of Magic
& Light Fantastic
:P where they are at least coherently sensible (apart from Grandpa who's so much like the mountain that people shelter IN
him!). So who's to say they do or don't live on or in rock, just because Terry's never written much about mountain trolls. He hasn't written that much about dwarf miners either when it comes down to it...
raisindot wrote:Sure, there is probably a territorial dimension to their emnity--any culture would reject any other culture that tried to invade their territory, even if they were only trying to "undermine" it. But none of this seems to be the source of the dwarf/troll animosity, which seem to be far more rooted in, as Thud! suggests, the "current" dwarves' assumption of ethnic superiority based on their (incorrect) interpretation of the Tak creation story. Even Shine admits that the dwarves have successfully used this interpretation to convince humans and other races that trolls are stupid, club-dragging beasts.
That's because the other races don't see
much of either trolls or dwarves in their original homelands because trolls and dwarves are now living more cosmopolitanly in A-M and some of the other communities in the temperate parts of the Disc and both
of them are different there. Dwarves are easier for humans to understand and relate to because they're more or less in the same (smaller) shape and act pretty much like humans most of the time.
Not only that but in the cities they're very industrious law-abiding citizens (until they get a drink inside them) and make all kinds of interesting and useful things and excellent ironware and weaponry, movable print, masonry - and lately underground mine workings... In Fifth Elephant
- sure they live underground and mine fat etc but in the actual story you find out far, far more about local political factions and sexism in the dwarfish nation than on industrial matters.
Whatever Trolls do
in the mountains is much more 'invisible' and all we really seem to know, courtesy of the dwarves in the cities, is that they behave as stupidly and thuggishly in their homelands as they do on the warmer plains or on loam. We know
they don't because we've seen how clever Detritus is in Men at Arms and in Jingo too (at night when the temperature plummets) so why is it so hard to believe that Mr. Shine is the troll leader partly by virtue of his ability to function well at sea-level as well as other trolls can do in their natural habitat
. We simply don't see trolls in that way because most of the time they're exactly like the dwarves are saying
- by our standards, which are not
troll standards because they're not remotely like us.
So it's cultural/racial prejudices and bias that allow the trolls to look like the big bad stupid aggressors even when the dwarves are still acting like sneaky cunning little baskets who love gold and want to get their hands on as much as possible because we know they're like that since they've started to live in cities to get their mitts on the other sort of gold by working in non-traditional but still skilled trades.They can do that simply 'cos they're equipped better to handle the climate. Another bias and stereotyping, because they don't just
mine gold in their own natural territories of course...
As 'civilised' beings trolls have to overcome major hurdles to be considered decent, honest and sensitive beings whilst dwarves don't have to make that many concessions because they're better adapted to make their way in the world.