Thud! Discussion *Spoilers*

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Postby Lady Vetinari » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:19 pm

poohcarrot wrote:Hang about just a minute! :?

What's with this "batch of typical males" wild assumption? :shock:

Who says the Grags are males? Couldn't they just as easily be females?
How would anybody know? If they don't know that Rhys is female, how do they know that their fellow Grags aren't female? :lol:


:shock: Who'd have thought the day would come when I agree with Pooh! :shock:
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Postby raisindot » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:51 pm

Tonyblack wrote:
How much of Sam Vimes actions do you think were influenced by the Summoning Dark


If Sam Vimes is under the control of the Summoning Dark, does that make Ponder Stibbons the Summoning Dork?

:P

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Postby poohcarrot » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:40 am

On page 8 of the US HB it says "Woerworld" instead of Uberwald. In the UK edition it says "Uberwald". :?

On page 85 it takes the p*ss out of George Bush.

"If you're not with us, you're against us. Huh. If you're not an apple, you're a banana..." :lol:
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby swreader » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:42 am

I'll get to the male/female question in my next post--but the answer is that the dwarfs, like all the other species on disc world (and most human races) have historically treated females as subservient and lesser beings. The reason there is no dwarf in Monstrous Regiment is because Terry has dealt with the dwarf problem in 5th E and T.

But as to the Summoning, the key to understanding it is to watch what it says, and what it causes Sam to think and/or say. The Summoning Dark is not simply a Dwarf belief, though it has been working with dwarfs for about the past 10,000 years. Certainly it draws on the anger that Sam has which is provoked by Ardent's arrogance. Sam gets angrier and angrier until, with Angua, he stops following Argent and goes down the boarded off tunnel where he touches the door and gets "infected" by the Summoning Dark (hereafter SD). This creature has (read the italicized portions) never seen a mind like Sam's

The creature swam through a mind. It had seen thousands of minds since the universe began, but there was something strange about this one. ...
The creature was old, although it would be more accurate to say that it had existed for a long time. When, at the start of all things, the primordial clouds of mind had collapsed into gods and demons and souls of all levels, it had been among those who had never drifted close to a major accretion.l So it had entered the universe aimlessly, without task or affiliation, a scarp of being blowing free, fitting in wherever it could, a sort of complicated thought looking for the right kind of mind. Currently--that is to say for the past ten thousand years, it had found work as a superstition.


Clearly, the SD (as it is called by the Dwarfs, predates the dwarfs. It looks for rage and anger--so it seems likely that it lured Sam to it. But it is not initially directed at turning Sam against the Dwarfs. The first indication of it is when he confronts the stupid trolls who are delivering Chrysophase's request for a meeting. And he threatened your family,his hind brain added. He had it coming-- And Sam notices the pain in his hand and the stab of the headache.

I think that Sam, who has a large reservoir of controlled anger, would probably have acted in somewhat the same fashion on his own. But, it is only the fact that the Guarding Dark becomes aware of him and begins watching and thwarting the SD's efforts that keeps Sam from going berserk long before Koom Valley. But, it does want to get him to Koom Valley to kill the Grags and if not killed in the process to die insane. But the GD saves him from the efforts of SD when he refuses to kill the Grags--not for pity, but "You don't kill the helpless. You just don't." It has left it's mark when it existed. "I salute you, said a thought that was not his, and he felt the sudden absence of something whose presence he had not noticed before."

The point is that Sam's rage is much stronger than before. He is being manipulated even though he denies it during the time and after. But that means that Sam and GD are stronger together than SD--which makes him the man who is capable of saving AM from the effect of another Koom Valley.
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Postby raisindot » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:46 am

Jan Van Quirm wrote:PS:- You should see the size of some of the pebbles near where I live (compare them to the dune grasses and fencing - they're massive! They wouldn't look out of place in a rockery or a rugged moraine terrace (in fact that's more or less what they are, only smoothed by the sea) :P It wasn't necessarily meant to be an insult :wink:


To quote Michael Scott of the Yank version of "The Office": "That's what she said!"

:D

From the TonyBlack dictionary:

Pebble: A small, rounded stone, esp. one worn smooth by the action of water.

No wonder dem male trolls hang out wif other males sniffin' Slab instead of wif dem female trolls wots callin' der rocks pebbles alla time

:wink:

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Postby raisindot » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:42 pm

poohcarrot wrote:On page 8 of the US HB it says "Woerworld" instead of Uberwald. In the UK edition it says "Uberwald". :?


Holy s**t, never noticed that before! Did you also notice that in that same paragraph the word "remember" is misspelled? Stupid Yank editors!

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Postby swreader » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:22 am

Lady Vetinari wrote:
poohcarrot wrote:Hang about just a minute! :?

What's with this "batch of typical males" wild assumption? :shock:

Who says the Grags are males? Couldn't they just as easily be females?
How would anybody know? If they don't know that Rhys is female, how do they know that their fellow Grags aren't female? :lol:


:shock: Who'd have thought the day would come when I agree with Pooh! :shock:


The "batch o typical males" was semi-humorous--I found it very funny. But as to the Grags being females, or not having any idea that Rhys is female, that is abundantly clear in the book.

When Sam & Angua first meet Ardent and he objects to The Sergeant did not accompany Sam to the meeting in his office. When Sam questions him, his answer is "The obvious reason," said Argent. "She is openly female." And Sam has to insist over Ardent's objection that Angua (a female Watch officer) should accompany him. Ardent consistently dismisses the knowledge of women. He and he Grags reject the authority of the Low King because he is "Wishy-washy. Dangerously liberal. Shllow. He has seen the light." This rather strongly suggests that they have not recognized Rhys as female--they just object to his policies.

But when Bashfullson confronts Ardent at he cave, he uses a very significant word Ha'ak!. That is the word which has been used as a term of outrage toward Cheri in 5th Elephant. Exactly what it means we do not learn, but Detritus knows it's a "bad word" and threaten to shoot anyone who uses it again on their trip to Beonk. It is used about Chreri by the conservative canditate, Albertson, and Sam threates him with "repercussions" if it is used again.

In other words--it's quite clear from the two books that the male Dwarfs, even including Carrot, are shocked and appalled to find that their daughters or any dwarf does not choose, uniformly, to adopt what is essentially a male role as being truly Dwafih. Cheri doesn't like drinking beer and singing about gold She doesn't like using an ax though she will if necessary. That's why she's such a shock to all the traditional deep-down dwarfs. It is simply inconceivable that the Grags in Thud! realize that Rhys is a female Dwarf.
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Postby poohcarrot » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:41 am

...but you never put forward any proof that the Grags are all men. :lol:
"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy."
"You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.
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Postby Tonyblack » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:59 am

I think the difference here is that the dwarfs do not like their females to act like human females. It's about sex really. Dwarfs are sexless and the only time gender becomes an issue is in the privacy of their homes. In some ways it's a bit like a European woman going to somewhere like Iran wearing a miniskirt and low-cut blouse. The males (and possibly the females) there would be outraged as they'd see sexuality flaunted in front of them.

The grags may be male or female, but to a dwarf that doesn't matter as long as they behave like a dwarf. Cheery, for example, isn't behaving like a female dwarf, she's copying human females. In some ways that goes for most of the dwarfs who have moved to, or were born in Ankh-Morpork. They may outwardly look like dwarfs, but the more they live with humans, the more they act like humans. The slowly integrate into A-M society. :)
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Postby raisindot » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:42 am

swreader wrote:But when Bashfullson confronts Ardent at he cave, he uses a very significant word Ha'ak!. That is the word which has been used as a term of outrage toward Cheri in 5th Elephant. Exactly what it means we do not learn, but Detritus knows it's a "bad word" and threaten to shoot anyone who uses it again on their trip to Beonk. It is used about Chreri by the conservative canditate, Albertson, and Sam threates him with "repercussions" if it is used again.


Hmmm...that's interesting. I wonder if Ha'ak translates as "corrupt," in the context of "behavior unbecoming a true dwarf?"For Albertson, Cheery's open femaleness represents the corruption of traditional Dwarfish gender conventions. In Koom Valley, Bashfullson uses the word to characterize Ardent's most un-Dwarfish behavior of destroying words, witnesses and the Truth.

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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:44 pm

poohcarrot wrote:...but you never put forward any proof that the Grags are all men. :lol:

Would you want to look down their codpieces to make sure? :twisted: :lol:

I suppose you might be lucky and just find some socks 8)
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Postby Doughnut Jimmy » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:46 pm

In other words--it's quite clear from the two books that the male Dwarfs, even including Carrot, are shocked and appalled to find that their daughters or any dwarf does not choose, uniformly, to adopt what is essentially a male role as being truly Dwafih. Cheri doesn't like drinking beer and singing about gold She doesn't like using an ax though she will if necessary. That's why she's such a shock to all the traditional deep-down dwarfs. It is simply inconceivable that the Grags in Thud! realize that Rhys is a female Dwarf.


Surely it doesn't matter to them if Rhys is female as long as she isn't openly female though?
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Postby poohcarrot » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:26 pm

I've noticed something about Thud. :shock:

Where ever possible, TP uses the word "thud" to describe various things ie; the sound of the dwarf pumps, the sound of people's heartbeats, being hit on the head and I'm sure there was another one too. 8)
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Postby Tonyblack » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:27 pm

poohcarrot wrote:I've noticed something about Thud. :shock:

Where ever possible, TP uses the word "thud" to describe various things ie; the sound of the dwarf pumps, the sound of people's heartbeats, being hit on the head and I'm sure there was another one too. 8)
Yes, I'm sure you're right. He did something similar with Night Watch and the use of the word 'ginger'.

There's also a theme running through Thud of 'the writing on the wall'. :)
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:32 am

You have two weeks to read or reread Carpe Jugulum for the discussion on Monday 5th April. :D
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