UA - Not Loving it and feeling like traitoress

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Postby raisindot » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:25 pm

Dotsie wrote:
raisindot wrote:Andy is just a common thug


That's right. Isn't that the point? Why would Terry make a sophisticated football hooligan?


For the same reason he made "The Word's" Mr. Tulip much more than a common hired killer. Tulip's encyclopediac knowledge of art, and his semi-tragic backstory made him a much more interesting character (much more so than Mr. Pin), and one whose demise almost elicited a bit of sympathy.

Carcer is a common street thug, but he's also a cunning manipulator, extremely intelligent, and a total sociopath in the Teatime tradition, making him an incredibly worthy opponent for Vimes in "Night Watch."

Even a less-successful villain like Cosmo Lavish, the typical stock wealthy power pusher, is less of a stock character because of his obsession with becoming Vetinari (and which makes the postscript of "Making Money" both funny and a bit touching).

Andy didn't need to be a 'sophisticated' thug, but PTerry could have had added a psycho-dimensional aspect to his personality (beyond his pure violent tendencies) that would have made his villainy somewhat interesting.

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Postby Dotsie » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:31 pm

J-I-B

If you read Danny B's reply to whole Andy-as-thug issue, he says it all very well & there's no point in my repeating myself!

But...
Tulip was a gangster who might get paid to kill you, Carcer was a psycho who would definitely kill you, Teatime was a psycho who would decide early on whether or not to kill you and then do it without a second thought. Andy is so unhinged that he might kill you, he might want to be your mate. And Danny is right, there are definitely men out there like that and they are terrifying if they are always hanging around you.
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Postby raisindot » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:11 pm

Dotsie wrote:J-I-B

If you read Danny B's reply to whole Andy-as-thug issue, he says it all very well & there's no point in my repeating myself!

But...
Tulip was a gangster who might get paid to kill you, Carcer was a psycho who would definitely kill you, Teatime was a psycho who would decide early on whether or not to kill you and then do it without a second thought. Andy is so unhinged that he might kill you, he might want to be your mate. And Danny is right, there are definitely men out there like that and they are terrifying if they are always hanging around you.


I did read Danny's response, and I guess it didn't convince me that Andy was any more interesting or compelling. Being "realistic" doesn't always mean "interesting" or "compelling." It does make him a stock character that, for me at least, just didn't carry a particularly dramatic narrative weight.

It's his ability to make "common criminals" unique and eccentric that has always been one of PTerry's strengths. Like Quentin Tarantino and Elmore Leonard, he can take what could be a stock character (a Tulip or Carcer) and infuse that character with attributes that go far beyond the normal violent psychotic tendencies that you can read about in your daily newspaper. I don't feel he accomplished this with Andy. As terrifying as he might he, he was still a garden variety sociopath. Maybe that was Pterry's point--to create a perfectly, normal garden variety one-dimensional heavy as a foil for the garden variety, one-dimensional "junior" characters Trevor and Juliet.

Whatever. This is clearly a YMMV category so I won't belabor it any further.

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Postby raisindot » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:24 pm

Doughnut Jimmy wrote:
Does the USA not have similar sports fans groups then? I thought you guys were big supporters of your American football and baseball teams?


There really isn't an equivalent of the "local football clans" in the U.S. Sure, people are fans of teams, and yes, there are always a few idiots who go after fans of opposing teams, but, for the most part, fans of one team are pretty civil to those of another team (even most Red Sox fans will refrain from attacking Yankee fans at ball games, and vice versa). You never really get the kind of club-fan-based warfare that you have in UA and Europe. Perhaps it's just because the U.S. is so large and diverse, or because there are so many different sports teams that it's hard to truly become a fanatic for any one of them. Or because too many Americans regrettably prefer to base their hatred of others on the color of their skin or their religion rather than sports. And the worst of these join gangs or cults that are just as reprehensible as any sports thug.


:cry:

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Postby Willem » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:58 am

Count me in the 'not very impressed' group. There were many wonderful ideas and people in the book, but it never really came together for me. A healthy dislike of football doesn't help either probably (although I did enjoy Rankin's Knees up Mother Earth).

Will have to try a reread after my pile of new books has diminished!
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Postby Dotsie » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:05 am

raisindot wrote:Whatever. This is clearly a YMMV category so I won't belabor it any further.

J-I-B


Cute way of getting the last word :wink:

But what does YMMV stand for?
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Postby Willem » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:20 am

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Postby Dotsie » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:23 am

I never had any issues with my mileage, thank you so very much!
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Postby Perdita X » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:39 am

Raisindot - what does YMMV mean ? (BTW I bloody hate nemonics)
TTFN :wink:

Perdita X

Sorry Sorry - ignore me - just reread the posts and got the answer

he's very Cheeky isnt he Dotsie! - i say dearie you're a cheeky boy - have you got your parrot head umbrella handy Dotsie? - he might need a tickle with it !
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Postby Dotsie » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:42 pm

That's Sadie's, & even I wouldn't take it from her :shock: But I might whack him with my handbag :D
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Postby raisindot » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:57 pm

Dotsie wrote:That's Sadie's, & even I wouldn't take it from her :shock: But I might whack him with my handbag :D


Very much looking forward to it, Ms. Dotsie. Or, perhaps we can find something even more entertaining in Mr. Lavish's secret wardrobe...

Oh wait, this belongs in the S&M forum. Sorry. :twisted:

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Postby Albert_Spangler » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:01 am

I haven't finished it yet, but I absolutely love it. Mr Nutt is fast becoming one of my favourite characters ever. I can kind of relate to the themes in the book though as a fair few people (if you can call them that) I knew from school have themselves become football fanatics to the extent of hooliganism. Methinks they watch too much Football Factory and Green Street!
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Postby Lady Vetinari » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:44 am

I am Brit ... I am not into football and some of the jokes went right over my head and I thought Vetinari seemed out of character - so it is not rated at the top for me either ...

And ladies ... Vetinari is mine! :twisted:

Can't remember who said it but I love Hogfather - and the DVD was really good ... Marc Warren (and I picked up on this before I read the interview) based his performance on Johnny Depps portrayal of Willy Wonka... Not entirely though...

I had Monstrous Regiment read to me over the phone and I did not even want to hear the ending I was bored with it!

I also struggled through Equal Rites.
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Postby Dotsie » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:24 am

Lady Vetinari wrote: I thought Vetinari seemed out of character - so it is not rated at the top for me either ...

And ladies ... Vetinari is mine! :twisted: [/color]

He was completely in character... he just had a girlfriend! :lol:
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Postby theoldlibrarian » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:04 pm

The first time I read UA I loved it and thought it was probably the best book yet. I loved the football, the Ork and Terry introduced some of his best characters yet.
But upon re-reading I began to like it less for one main reason. I have always loved Ankh-Morpork, I find it similar in many ways to my own city of Dublin. I suppose you could really relate AM to any city in the world particularly in S America or Asia.
But reading UA I was very much reading about England. It was undoubtedly more like Liverpool, London or Manchester than the cities of any other country.
Just remember, "His hands be blest, but they are not devine".

EDIT: I also think this was one of Terry's best portrayals of Vetinari.
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