Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

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Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Slantaholic » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:27 pm

Is anyone else worried about Vetinari?

He's murdered his way through the latest books. In Judgement Day, he chucked people out of a window, killing them, yet making Angua smile. In Raising Steam, he openly kills people in the fifth 'chapter'/section. Later, he must be getting over the assassination attempt badly, because he's started to drink!

By the time he's met Moist, (UK hardback page 47) he's started to do that strange long staring at the wall (with insane body language), then Drumknott breaks out his crossword, which I'm fairly sure drove him mad in the first place, if not the job.

I think Pratchett is either planning to kill him off shortly, or dump him into the Lord Vetinari ward.

Later, I don't know what possessed him to go on holiday with Vimes, Cheery and Detritus, Fred and Nobby. In previous books, such as Jingo, he looked like he wanted a holiday. This time, he's burning people alive in a furnace! That's not a holiday.

He clubbed people to death with his infamous shovel, also used to cook Vimes a fry-up! (UK hardback page 370)

I think 'Stoker' is a reference to Bram Stoker, but I can't be sure. I only caught about three references in the whole book, which I don't like very much; it was too old, and reeked of sexism and classism, especially when the Queen abdicated because she couldn't work out maternity leave.

I'm surprised Vimes couldn't arrest Vetinari - for murder, which he's started to commit. The only one with a sane reaction - at first - is Mr Lipwig before the goblins taught him to kill. I preferred him as a thief, immoral though that is.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby =Tamar » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:19 am

Slantaholic wrote:Is anyone else worried about Vetinari?
He's murdered his way through the latest books. In Judgement Day, he chucked people out of a window, killing them, yet making Angua smile. In Raising Steam, he openly kills people in the fifth 'chapter'/section. Later, he must be getting over the assassination attempt badly, because he's started to drink!

We're rarely certain that it is truly Vetinari. We are certain, at one point, that it isn't. Ever since the end of The Truth, we can't be entirely sure that it is truly Vetinari in any scene.

Slantaholic wrote:By the time he's met Moist, (UK hardback page 47) he's started to do that strange long staring at the wall (with insane body language), then Drumknott breaks out his crossword, which I'm fairly sure drove him mad in the first place, if not the job.

That isn't Vetinari. Drumknott is keeping the situation in deep cover, even when there is officially nobody around to overhear.

Slantaholic wrote:Later, I don't know what possessed him to go on holiday with Vimes, Cheery and Detritus, Fred and Nobby. In previous books, such as Jingo, he looked like he wanted a holiday. This time, he's burning people alive in a furnace! That's not a holiday.

It's as much a holiday as Vimes's holiday in Snuff, i.e., a busman's holiday. I think Vetinari wanted to be there to be sure of what was really happening rather than having to depend on his spy network. Sometimes you just have to be there. Besides, Iron Girder exerts a magical attraction on all males, and he couldn't very well be the engineer. Being the stoker is next best.

Slantaholic wrote:He clubbed people to death with his infamous shovel, also used to cook Vimes a fry-up! (UK hardback page 370)

Well, he is a trained Assassin. The shovel was presumably burned clean. It is traditional for anyone working with any kind of heated metal to use it for cooking, especially if doing so is unauthorized.

Slantaholic wrote:I think 'Stoker' is a reference to Bram Stoker, but I can't be sure.

Not likely. Stoker is a standard railway job. It's the man who stokes the fires. There is no logical link to vampire stories. It's more likely that Bram Stoker got his family name from someone who had the job.

Slantaholic wrote:... it was too old, and reeked of sexism and classism, especially when the Queen abdicated because she couldn't work out maternity leave.

Since when? There was a discussion of the past, but it was definitely about the past. Considering that it is set in the equivalent of the early 19th century, it's a marvel of modernity.

Slantaholic wrote:I'm surprised Vimes couldn't arrest Vetinari - for murder, which he's started to commit.


Vetinari as tyrant has the right to have anyone killed within his jurisdiction. Outside his jurisdiction, Vimes has no authority to arrest him unless in hot pursuit of him for a crime that Vimes could prosecute for - which he can't, because Vetinari has the right... Remember, this is not set in the 21st century UK.

Slantaholic wrote: The only one with a sane reaction - at first - is Mr Lipwig before the goblins taught him to kill. I preferred him as a thief, immoral though that is.

Lipwig is a pragmatist and self-defense was involved.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby pip » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:51 am

Which Queen abdicated :?:
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:11 am

The Dwarf one I think. :think:
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby pip » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:34 am

I didn't think she had . I'm confused.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Tonyblack » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:59 am

Well as Slantaholic said in another thread:
Slantaholic wrote:I found it awful, and couldn't finish it.
And the abdication referred to would be (if it existed) at the end of the book, that might explain the confusion.

Edit - she doesn't abdicate (I just checked). She merely changes her name.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby pip » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:25 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Well as Slantaholic said in another thread:
Slantaholic wrote:I found it awful, and couldn't finish it.
And the abdication referred to would be (if it existed) at the end of the book, that might explain the confusion.

Edit - she doesn't abdicate (I just checked). She merely changes her name.

That's what I thought . It was all a cheeky play on words when she said she'd stop being King.
So I'm confused by slantaholic reading to that point then giving up with a handful of pages left. Seems silly.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Slantaholic » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:15 pm

pip wrote:
And the abdication referred to would be (if it existed) at the end of the book, that might explain the confusion.
Edit - she doesn't abdicate (I just checked). She merely changes her name.

It was half-way through the book, I recall, in front of all the dwarfs, after the 'same-sex' kiss before we found out she's a woman again. I've forgotten which other dwarf came out as female/trans in T5E - I keep getting confused with Ardent.

I gave up deep-reading RS in the first few pages, and scanned the rest page after page. How can everyone read it? The style is so old. I think it reads so Victorian - I have no idea what book Mr Pratchett read last, but it dribbles all over the place. The only concession was that he skipped all the year-after-year construction work, and it flew faster after that.

Slantaholic wrote:I think 'Stoker' is a reference to Bram Stoker, but I can't be sure.
Tamar wrote:
Not likely. Stoker is a standard railway job. It's the man who stokes the fires. There is no logical link to vampire stories. It's more likely that Bram Stoker got his family name from someone who had the job.

But Vetinari's having sex with a vampire - Lady Margolotta to be precise, unless he prefers Drumknott.
Tamar, were you laughing at me?
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Tonyblack » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:37 pm

I don't understand this notion that Vetnari is having sex Lady Margolotta. Where is that ever suggested? Vetinari has a close personal friendship with a member of the opposite sex, who in many ways is his equal intellectually. Why does that mean they are sleeping together? :think:
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Tonyblack » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:38 pm

Oh yes - Slantaholic - which Discworld book is called "Judgement Day"? :?
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Slantaholic » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:45 pm

Tony Black wrote:
I don't understand this notion that Vetnari is having sex Lady Margolotta.

I've been reading too much fanfiction. Lots of it's about Havelock Vetinari; he's shipped A LOT with Margolotta, Vimes or Drumknott.
Tony Black wrote:
Oh yes - Slantaholic - which Discworld book is called "Judgement Day"?

One that I thought would be my favourite, and would get me over World of Poo. Poor Mr Slant didn't feature as much as I hoped he'd would, but it's better than a one-off liner in Snuff or Raising Steam.
Now, Mr Black, I think you're laughing at me!
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Tonyblack » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:47 pm

I'm not laughing at you - I really do not know any DW book called Judgement Day.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Tonyblack » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:48 pm

Oh wait - I just Googled it. You mean Science of Discworld - Judgement Day? I only read the one of those books and didn't care for it. I didn't realise it was that one you meant - sorry.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Slantaholic » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:49 pm

Tony Black wrote:
I really do not know any DW book called Judgement Day.

Please, you must be having me on. It's a Science of the Discworld sub-title. Number four, to be precise.
Tony Black wrote:
I only read the one of those books and didn't care for it.

I learnt from the science sections, but I agree slightly. Reading for the story and skipping the opinion pieces disrupts the reading flow, I found.
It's also the same book that Vetinari opens kills people, but off-page. Angua keeps smiling about it, to me.
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Re: Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

Postby Tonyblack » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:18 pm

As stated, I have no interest in the Science books and was only vaguely aware that a fourth book had come out. I certainly did not know the subtitle.

Why shouldn't Vetinari kill people? He's a graduate of the Guild of Assassins, and they do that sort of thing legally. And he's a self confessed tyrant who is above the law and can do pretty much what he wants to. Usually he chooses to keep things running within whatever laws exist, or are considered suitable, but as a tyrant, he can change those on a whim. Have people executed or freed and pardoned.

Terry has merely fleshed out the character in the last few books. Actually, starting with Men At Arms when Vetinari's little intellectual game of pushing people to the limit goes wrong. He is not faultless and, in the way Granny likes to have Nanny around to stop her getting out of control, Vetinari has Vimes.
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