Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

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Postby DaveC » Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:42 pm

Ta! :D
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Postby LilMaibe » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:59 pm

And yet no comment on hr actuall 'theory'... The internet is weiiiiird
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Postby DaveC » Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:16 pm

LilMaibe wrote:And yet no comment on hr actuall 'theory'... The internet is weiiiiird


As I've just only read each book once I can just about understand what you mean, it's an interesting idea.

Sorry am only just getting back to you now, was out shopping earlier and was just browsing while the missus was in a changing room but just wanted to clear up the abbreviation confusion while I thought of it. :)
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Postby high eight » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:11 am

Except for the fact it wasn't a vigilante killing.


It was in all but name - Vimes set out with the intention to kill Wolfgang

[snip]

Although he knew that an actual arrest would be impossible,


He never intended to make an arrest anyway

he went by the book throughout his attempt to apprehend Wolfgang. He told the Bjonk captain what he was doing. He gave Wolfgang several chances to surrender. Only when Wolfgang clearer stated that he would not submit to the Law did Vimes kill him.


That was just form - so that he didn't get arrested for murder.

And, technically, Wolfgang killed himself--he had the choice not to leap for the firework.


A dog has the choice not to chase a stick? OK........

Willikens has no such moral problem in Snuff, and Vimes chooses his loyalty to his butler/sidekick over seeking justice for Stratford's killer. It's just one of the many moral ambiguities that makes the Vimes of Snuff a far more problemmatic characer than the Vimes of previous books.


Not really. Vimes choses Willikins to do his killing for him - he is the rocket. Vimes just points him in the right direction and lets him go.
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Postby high eight » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:13 am

LilMaibe wrote:-Why not kill everyone and invade Poland?-

Remember the full quote and its context, folks? :(


Yeah, it was about assassinating a dictator: nothing to do with street justice.
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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:18 am

high eight wrote:
LilMaibe wrote:-Why not kill everyone and invade Poland?-

Remember the full quote and its context, folks? :(


Yeah, it was about assassinating a dictator: nothing to do with street justice.


Actually it was about people thinking they know what's best for everyone and acting accourdingly.
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Postby high eight » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:25 am

LilMaibe wrote:Like? No.
Wanted to reach into the book and tell him at the end of the game that she shall frigging forget about 'magic' and that the wizards outright cheated? Yep.


Erm... I'm not sure what you mean by most of that statement. Cheated? "The ball shall be called the ball"

LilMaibe wrote:As for the scene, if it'd been the next day and we'd learn that Pepe got word that Andy did not learn his lesson from what happened after the game, the actions ould be ok.


It would have made a concise, to the point scene unwieldy and removed most of the point.

LilMaibe wrote:But like that? Look at the text. Andy is furious at Pepe and the only thing stopping him from chasing after his attacker is that lemon.
He is not scared, he's likely even more furious now.


Thats not how I read it

LilMaibe wrote:And if he can't find pepe he'll take it out at people who either are close to pepe or who are just there...(latter is even more likely)


And Pepe will kill him

LilMaibe wrote:You say you've been on the receiving end?
Never been the target cause that f'cktard got in trouble with his parents for damaging the car?


I don't understand that statement either.

I have been bullied. I was bullied at school by other pupils and teachers (who both thought that I was a smartarse and "too clever for my own good"). I was also bullied at work, though that was more mental cruelty.

Would I have let a "Pepe" loose on them? If I had known someone like him (Who wasn't doing it to me), Yes most certainly. In fact I'd have put the boot in myself a few times - once they were safely down and semi-conscious.
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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:53 am

I have been bullied too, just in case you may think I 'don't get it cause i've never been there'.

And still I see what Pepe did as false.
If it would have been Carter finally growing a pair, then, yes, it would have been bordering awesome.

As for the cheating.
Well, maybe it wasn't intentionally, but it doesn't take much to construct something out of the facts that of all rules the wizards kept that (and a few others we never here about because they are apparently not important) one in, a servant to the wizards carrying a jersey for Trevor, who has some reputation of being incredible at kicking the can, AND an empty tin can in her back and that the ball goes missing almost directly after trevor entered the game, is replaced by said tin can that was brought along by the servant to the wizards and AM United not being given a chance to actually adjust to the new 'ball'

Really, it does not take much.


EDIT: BTW, I think an even more unsettling trend is the combination of feces and sex in the past few books.

A scene from Thud everyone remembers (and I, who haven't it read yet constantly stumble over) is Angua and Sally ('twas sally, wasn't it) naked in the sewers.
In Making Money we get this whole sextoy/S&M stuff and Harry King in a sorta major role that fulfills actually no purpose that would have required someone who's business is, well, sh*t.
UA is a bit more subtle about it, but when I see a toilet IN a bed (no matter how sleepy/lazy one is, there's a gaping difference to a simple chamberpot), some of the picked, longwinded 'insults' centering around sh*t and all these pretty flat, but present sex-jokes (not to mention the absolut unnecessary information that lady margolotta (most likely her) now has a rubber-fetish-dress) sum up to the same.
Can't speak for Snuff yet, but from what I do know about it so far... The same sh*t again.

THAT is unsettling.
Not saying that 'literature has to be kept clean', hell no, it's just the amount of it and scenes that seem to be soley there for the lines about one of both.
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Postby BaldJean » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:28 pm

LilMaibe wrote:I have been bullied too, just in case you may think I 'don't get it cause i've never been there'.

And still I see what Pepe did as false.
If it would have been Carter finally growing a pair, then, yes, it would have been bordering awesome.

As for the cheating.
Well, maybe it wasn't intentionally, but it doesn't take much to construct something out of the facts that of all rules the wizards kept that (and a few others we never here about because they are apparently not important) one in, a servant to the wizards carrying a jersey for Trevor, who has some reputation of being incredible at kicking the can, AND an empty tin can in her back and that the ball goes missing almost directly after trevor entered the game, is replaced by said tin can that was brought along by the servant to the wizards and AM United not being given a chance to actually adjust to the new 'ball'

Really, it does not take much.


EDIT: BTW, I think an even more unsettling trend is the combination of feces and sex in the past few books.

A scene from Thud everyone remembers (and I, who haven't it read yet constantly stumble over) is Angua and Sally ('twas sally, wasn't it) naked in the sewers.
In Making Money we get this whole sextoy/S&M stuff and Harry King in a sorta major role that fulfills actually no purpose that would have required someone who's business is, well, sh*t.
UA is a bit more subtle about it, but when I see a toilet IN a bed (no matter how sleepy/lazy one is, there's a gaping difference to a simple chamberpot), some of the picked, longwinded 'insults' centering around sh*t and all these pretty flat, but present sex-jokes (not to mention the absolut unnecessary information that lady margolotta (most likely her) now has a rubber-fetish-dress) sum up to the same.
Can't speak for Snuff yet, but from what I do know about it so far... The same sh*t again.

THAT is unsettling.
Not saying that 'literature has to be kept clean', hell no, it's just the amount of it and scenes that seem to be soley there for the lines about one of both.

What exactly are you complaining about? I am rather glad Terry does not keep the novels "clean". Life is not clean; just take a look around you. I would rather be worried if Pratchett kept stuff like that entirely out of his novels.
The naked scene with Angua and Sally makes absolute sense for the course of the novel. They have to get along with each other, and here they are, without any disguise, and have to do it. Angua even attempts to attack Sally at first, though she tries to stop her attack midway. Yes, there are erotic undertones in that situation, but what exactly is wrong with that? The brooding conflict between Angua and Sally is one of the major factors of "Thud!", and this scene absolutely fits in.
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Postby chris.ph » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:41 pm

nanny ogg has been a dirty old mare since she stuck her head out of the long mans barrow, so how can you say its only been in the last few books, rincewind used to dream of naked women islanders, i could go on, sex and the undercurrents of sex has always been part of the discworld
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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:23 pm

Because there is a difference.
Remember the quote about erotic and kinky?
There's a clear line that has been crossed.

As said, I am fully aware the topics have been there before, but never as prominent as recently.

My fault might be that I tend to judge fictional stories for the big picture, not for who came up with them.
If you like a story, no matter what's in it, for the author, I'm fine with that.
But allow me the freedom to voice my opinion, will you?
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Postby chris.ph » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:46 pm

i am, but im allowed mine as well
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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:50 pm

chris.ph wrote:i am, but im allowed mine as well


Of course.
And apologies for being cranky, it is just something that bothers me to no end.
I'm like that, I can't sit still till I got my answers.
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Postby BaldJean » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:26 pm

LilMaibe wrote:Because there is a difference.
Remember the quote about erotic and kinky?
There's a clear line that has been crossed.

As said, I am fully aware the topics have been there before, but never as prominent as recently.

My fault might be that I tend to judge fictional stories for the big picture, not for who came up with them.
If you like a story, no matter what's in it, for the author, I'm fine with that.
But allow me the freedom to voice my opinion, will you?

The "clear line between erotic and kinky" only exists in your head. Who has the authority to define such a line? No-one. According to your standards I am most probably "kinky" too. Well, I don't give a damn, to be honest.
With the standards you have a lot of books which are seen as world literature by most people will be "kinky". "Die Blechtrommel" by Günther Grass, for example. "Gravity's Rainbow" by Thomas Pynchon. Probably even "Ulysses" by James Joyce.
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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:36 pm

You don't even know the quote I'm talking about, do you?
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