Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby Who's Wee Dug » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:53 pm

I'm that fed up with the debacle I have blocked all posts :evil:
He willnae tak' a drink! I think he's deid! , on the other hand though A Midgie in yir hand is worth twa up yir kilt.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby Tonyblack » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:57 pm

I know what you mean! :x
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby raisindot » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:20 pm

LilMaibe wrote:Point taken and I'm aware. H8 said, though, that the rules that are in the book are pretty much the fifa rules. Yet, none of those applies. Not even 'pretty much' So, isn't it basically this? As in,we have a game that isn't really football but we call it football for some reason? (ranging from 'to make people have something familiar' to 'to cash in on the world/european cups' )


LilMaibe, not sure what it's so important to you how close the game of 'futball' in UA is to the "real thing" on Roundworld. As others have said, it's satire. Now, if you really want to read a book, set on Roundworld, that does satirize football and messes up with the rules in ways Pterry doesn't even nearly approach in UA, read Robert Rankin's "Knees Up Mother Earth," one of his best books.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:18 pm

raisindot wrote:
LilMaibe wrote:Point taken and I'm aware. H8 said, though, that the rules that are in the book are pretty much the fifa rules. Yet, none of those applies. Not even 'pretty much' So, isn't it basically this? As in,we have a game that isn't really football but we call it football for some reason? (ranging from 'to make people have something familiar' to 'to cash in on the world/european cups' )


LilMaibe, not sure what it's so important to you how close the game of 'futball' in UA is to the "real thing" on Roundworld. As others have said, it's satire. Now, if you really want to read a book, set on Roundworld, that does satirize football and messes up with the rules in ways Pterry doesn't even nearly approach in UA, read Robert Rankin's "Knees Up Mother Earth," one of his best books.


Oh, it's not important. I was just wondering. I'm aware it's mostly meant as a parody/something people can relate to, but there still is this sour taste of the why. Sorry to repeat myself again, but I dislike the book for not feeling like Discworld to me, as there are many little things so...the opposite of what defined Discworld to me. Many little things that amount to something big that makes me squeazy.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby alicenanjing » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:39 pm

Oh, but in fact they don't even play football in UA, do they, they play foot-the-ball!! A most ancient and honourable game that isn't like football at all, perish the thought!
But on the other hand: the goblin deputy from Snuff, who or what is he? I know he has some connection with the Jolly Goblin from the picture book, but what is it? What is his connection with unggue? When Carrot and Angua visit Harry King's goblin employee to learn about unggue, the goblin granny tells them something like "If unggue does not come himself, he send!" when talking about how, in times of dire need, unggue is the only thing a goblin has, the only resource. Is Stinky, in some way, unggue made flesh? Does anyone have any thoughts about that?
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:30 pm

If I may add a further unsettling trend from both books:

YMMV, but I had the creeping feeling that there was some serious mankind bashing going on in both books.
As in: If you are an average human you are certainly cruel, evil, dumb and worthless.
Those that succeed in both books have some outstanding abilities. Even Vimes is suddenly given a sort of superpower he never needed before and quite frankly didn't really need here either. Yet it was there and put him apart from the average person.
In UA you had the best cook in the city/world, the most beautiful woman in the world, etc. Even the wizards are portrayed as fools not on par with the perfect and outstanding folks as magic is quite oridinary looking at their numbers.
And of course Vetinari's bit about how only humans could be so evil. Or the bit which more or less portraits orcs as victims of the vicious humans.
What happened to the average being that could succeed through wits and hard work?
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby swreader » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:24 pm

LilMaibe wrote:If I may add a further unsettling trend from both books:

YMMV, but I had the creeping feeling that there was some serious mankind bashing going on in both books.
As in: If you are an average human you are certainly cruel, evil, dumb and worthless.
Those that succeed in both books have some outstanding abilities. Even Vimes is suddenly given a sort of superpower he never needed before and quite frankly didn't really need here either. Yet it was there and put him apart from the average person.
In UA you had the best cook in the city/world, the most beautiful woman in the world, etc. Even the wizards are portrayed as fools not on par with the perfect and outstanding folks as magic is quite oridinary looking at their numbers.
And of course Vetinari's bit about how only humans could be so evil. Or the bit which more or less portraits orcs as victims of the vicious humans.
What happened to the average being that could succeed through wits and hard work?


This is the last time I'm going to bother to refute your incorrect and self-pitying posts. But aside from the fact that you claim only the last two books (UA & Snuff) are "flawed", I wonder if you've actually read ANY of Pratchett's books. At the end of Guards! Guards! Vetinari offers an expanded version of his theory of human nature--which he says will perhaps allow Vimes to be less upset with people. He says, in part:
"There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." ... " They accept evil not because they say yes[/i, but because they don't say [i]no."

Neither Vetinari's view of human nature (actually including all of disc world) has changed substantially since that first Watch book. I don't know what you've been reading, but obviously you haven't understood what he's been so brilliantly writing about for 39 books.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:33 pm

I never claimed his other books were perfect through and through.
But there's a difference between a papercut and a missing arm.
And how is that self-pitying?

EDIT: Frankly now, someone please explain to me the logic behind some of you people's reaction and behaviour towards me.
I say I don't like the book for reading near nothing like Discworld to me due to the increased amount of longwinded dialogue, monologueing, endless explaining of jokes and concepts, pointless padding, discontinuety within the story, established characters being not themself, heavy and widespread contradiction of established things, hammering home of morals that don't even go with what the characters actually do and more
and all I hear from you is that I'm a bad person for not liking the book and that I just don't get it and am therefore stupid and should shut up till I finally see how awesome the book is 'in reality'.
What?
(Granted, that was a bit self-pitying, but for heaven's sake, wouldn't you get more and more aggressive if people would try to force an opinion on you?)
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby Catch-up » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:17 pm

LilMaibe wrote:.... wouldn't you get more and more aggressive if people would try to force an opinion on you?)


So you understand everyone's responses now? ;) :D Just kidding, honest! In my defense it was just too tempting. :oops:
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― Sue Monk Kidd, The Secret Life of Bees:
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:23 pm

Catch-up wrote:
LilMaibe wrote:.... wouldn't you get more and more aggressive if people would try to force an opinion on you?)


So you understand everyone's responses now? ;) :D Just kidding, honest! In my defense it was just too tempting. :oops:


I know. And I never tried to force my opinion on others. If I gave that impression I apologise.
I just tried to say why I don't like the book, but constantly felt greeted with hatred from others just for not liking it, ignoring my reasons.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby stripy_tie » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:45 pm

LilMaibe wrote:I never claimed his other books were perfect through and through.
But there's a difference between a papercut and a missing arm.
And how is that self-pitying?

EDIT: Frankly now, someone please explain to me the logic behind some of you people's reaction and behaviour towards me.
I say I don't like the book for reading near nothing like Discworld to me due to the increased amount of longwinded dialogue, monologueing, endless explaining of jokes and concepts, pointless padding, discontinuety within the story, established characters being not themself, heavy and widespread contradiction of established things, hammering home of morals that don't even go with what the characters actually do and more
and all I hear from you is that I'm a bad person for not liking the book and that I just don't get it and am therefore stupid and should shut up till I finally see how awesome the book is 'in reality'.
What?
(Granted, that was a bit self-pitying, but for heaven's sake, wouldn't you get more and more aggressive if people would try to force an opinion on you?)


We're not trying to force any opinion on you, just picking apart poorly reasoned arguments and pointing out blatant untruths. I'm sure i've said this before but i will again for your benefit, i really didn't like or enjoy Snuff and UA but the difference between me and you is that i don't keep going on and on and on about it

What Discworld books do you actually enjoy?.
It's all about the sun master, white snow and red blood and the sun. Always has been.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:59 pm

stripy_tie wrote:
We're not trying to force any opinion on you, just picking apart poorly reasoned arguments and pointing out blatant untruths. I'm sure i've said this before but i will again for your benefit, i really didn't like or enjoy Snuff and UA but the difference between me and you is that i don't keep going on and on and on about it

What Discworld books do you actually enjoy?.


In no particular order:
Last Continent, Reaper Man, Lords&Ladies, Going Postal, Small Gods, Hogfather, Interesting Times, Feet of Clay, Men at Arms, Guards!Guards!, Colour of Magic, Light Fantastic, Science of Discworld, Soul Music, Moving Pictures,Jingo, Nightwatch
Those are those I enjoyed most.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby alicenanjing » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:32 pm

I don't think that "not getting" one or several of Sir Terry's books means that one is stupid or that one should feel that others might think so. I myself do not understand at all what Monstrous Regiment has to say, it has to be more than the obvious feminist statement, everyone knows that gels can hold their own, they're in all the major armies for chrissakes, the book has to be about more than that, but WHAT? And Making Money: it has all the right ingredients, twists and turns, good ideas, interesting values, and for the life of me I can't figure out why it feels to me more like a collection of characters and situations than the living, sparkling thing that I expected. I don't "get" it. Do I feel stupid? No, can't say that I do.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:36 pm

Making Money is weird...I don't know about your others, but it felt as if a part of the book was missing near the end.
I somewhere read someone descripe it as -Discworld as written by david lynch- (thankfully it's not THAT weird and confusing)
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby Ziriath » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:56 pm

Yeah, what I remember, was.....fog, Moist climbing the wall....fog, fog, stygium ring, fog.........four thousand golems....that dog and the dildo..golem horse.....fog...pineaple cake.....that guy who wants to be Vetinari, burns his finger off....fog.
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