Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby Dotsie » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:27 am

Maibe, if we're ruining an entire series for you, maybe you should stop posting in the UA and Snuff threads for a while. Unless you're about to change your mind, or you think someone else is. Otherwise you're just making yourself angry (and ruining the series for yourself).
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby raisindot » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:56 pm

LilMaibe wrote:And try to think beyond the story:
He now knows he 'has worth' (which is actually argueable, depending on one's personal understanding of worth). Now what?
He is perfect at everything.
There is no point he could evolve to and no chance for actual conflict.
The only thing he can do is, be perfect and make other characters pointless and take their place.
Is creating such a character really a good thing?


SPOILERS AVAST

Heading into real tangent territory here, but Nutt is really simply a non-human version of the "journey to virtue" narrative Pterry's had as a theme since at least Mort. Small Gods, The Truth, Guards Guards and Going Postal all start with powerless and flawed men who start at a baseline of either ignorance, mediocrity, or criminality but then work their work through a series of physical and or intellectual or moral challenges to reach their full potential as a valued and respected member of their particular society. (This same thing happens with Tiffany Aching in Wee Free Men, but one never really gets the sense that she was powerless.)

I'm not a big fan of Nutt, because I find him to be a not particularly believable character. But your argument that he has achieved perfection and therefore has nowhere to go narratively is one that could also be leveled at Moist, the William De Worde of Monstrous Regiment and UA, and, with Snuff, Sam Vimes himself.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby DaveC » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:00 pm

Good point :)
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:42 pm

Never said you couldn't call these characters 'at the end' as well.
And you can. Sadly.
Though, if I may say this, what differs them from the orc is that they were giving, umm, 'on-screen-time' to bloom. We saw them grow, and advance their skills/learn their lessons.
With the orc I had the feeling all the book offers is a list of the skills he can already do in perfection and already did in perfection long before the story started and before he had even a chance to learn the actual skill.

On a note, if I may:
I am very certain I did not miss it, could it be we are never given a reason as to why margolotta took the orc in, trained him like that and then sent him to AM of all places?
Don't know about you, but she knew what he was like and still she sends him to a place were (theoretically) his whole behaviour will get him into trouble or at least give him a severe culture-shock. That's one of the things I feel sorry for the orc about. (And he should have confronted Lotta in a righteous pissed-off-dropping-all-good-behaviour-way for basically using him as a puppet in a perverse experiment)
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby Dotsie » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:28 am

She took him in because of compassion. And she sent him to AM because she knew that his genius needed to be able to fully realise itself, which it couldn't do in Ubervald.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby polythenegirl » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:11 am

It was almost like it was the "cruel to be kind approach" in sending him to AM. She knew he was capable of more and capable of growing even further, possibly to the point of changing the world's opinions of Orcs as a species, but there was no way he could realise that potential where he was. Although it would be a massive culture shock to him to come to AM and deal with it it was something that he needed to go through IMO
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:16 am

polythenegirl wrote:It was almost like it was the "cruel to be kind approach" in sending him to AM. She knew he was capable of more and capable of growing even further, [...]


As said before: To where.
I mean, if he succeeds in changing people's views on orcs AND the whole race turns out to be remotely overskilled etc like him... Wouldn't we rather be at the same point we'd be with the golems in MM? As in: One might end with a nigh immortal race that can work hours on end and does everything in perfection so other workers aren't needed anymore?
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby Dotsie » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:58 pm

Why would Lady M want to suppress his personal growth on the grounds that he might unleash a super-race that would put humans out of work? Do you think genocide would be preferable, as happens elsewhere on the disc? What would be the alternative - to allow them to live as long as they never go to AM? Possibly this is the DW equivalent of migrant workers who are prepared to work longer hours for less money.

Nutt's potential cannot possibly be measured or even estimated. That's why he was sent to AM, and why Vetinari and Ridcully were keeping an eye on him.
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Re:

Postby alicenanjing » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:22 pm

cabbagehead wrote:On the original topic:

In UA - I agree with the OP that it was morally wrong for Pepe to do the lemon trick on Andy, but OTOH it was in character for Pepe to do so, since he is a street fighter and always will be. I don't see it as 'just desserts' but as the streets of AM still being not a completely lawful place (despite the efforts of the ever expanding Watch).

But I disagree about Snuff. Stratford escaped from custody of the Law en route to trial. By doing so he morally gave up whatever protections the Law offers to alleged criminals. A lone civilian, even one as skilled and capable as Willikins, is not required to perform a citizen's arrest under these conditions, and the level of technology of the AM environs does not allow him to call for a sufficient force of the Watch to perform an arrest in time to stop Stratford before he commits yet another murder. Also, the whole thing happens in open country, away from a Watch House. This is more similar to the situation 71-Hour-Ahmed described in Jingo - his beat was too large to police entirely by methods that protect the rights of the suspects. Unless anyone is suggesting Willikins engineered Stratford's escape so as to be able to kill him, I don't think he did wrong for that particular situation. In a city it would have been different - if he just saw Stratford he should have called the Watch. Then again, if he saw Stratford at the Vimes home he would have been justified in killing him outright.

YES YES! And let's not forget that it was Stratford who attacked Willikins, not the other way around. It was self-defence, not vigilantism, any way you look at it. Besides, Willikins did not set out specifically to kill Stratford, he just hovered nearby to intervene in case something went wrong. All Stratford had to to in order to escape the wrath of the Groom of Doom was to refrain from escaping and killing his guards, or, at the very least, refrain from trying to kill Willikins. Can't say fairer than that.

Yes, it would have been better for Stratford to stand trial, but since he did escape Willikins was justified in killing him.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby alicenanjing » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:26 pm

Sorry about that - the text of the quote got mixed up with what I wanted to say. My computer is acting up. The next-to-last paragraph is my reply.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby rockershovel » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:43 am

what I really don't understand about Lady Margolotta and Nutt, is why - as a vampire, as a member of a near-immortal ruling caste not noted for their generosity or compassion - she doesn't simply have them exterminated? This seems to be a fatal flaw in the whole idea.

It's clear from Fifth Elephant that the werewolves, when they manage to step beyond their natural limitations ( as does Wolfgang ), would be entirely capable of such a course, indeed it would seem to them the logical thing to do. It's also clear - whether from Angua chasing chickens during her "time", or Wolfgang leaping for the flare, that their natural limitations are ultimately insuperable.

Vampires in denial or abstinence seem to be deeply neurotic characters, whether it is Lady Margolotta's immersion in politics or Maladicta's coffee jitters. Otto Chriek is a curious example, because one can never be sure where the boundary between self-parody and genuine neurosis rests.

Lady Margolotta has grown up in a culture that sanctions the deliberate hunting and eating of humans, against a background of strict racial supremacism. What are her motives?
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby Ziriath » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:15 am

I think she used to be a human some centuries ago, until some vampire bite her. And she did not forget it.
But there's also a fact that Nutt is a Black Hole Sue http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackHoleSue and the whole story is bent to his will and needs.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:57 am

Ziriath wrote:I think she used to be a human some centuries ago, until some vampire bite her. And she did not forget it.
But there's also a fact that Nutt is a Black Hole Sue http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackHoleSue and the whole story is bent to his will and needs.


Thank you, finally someone who does agree
(Why yes, I did come back to say this. Okay, actually I did come back for a different topic, but step by step)
The whole bit about M not killing the orc, left alone anyone sparing him, has little to nothing to do with her once having been human, but is rather another bit of the orc's sueishness.
I said it before and I say it again, there's so much Sue when it comes to the orc that I can't really believe Sir Terry is serious about the orc and did not write him that bad on purpose (possible as some subtle FU towards his publisher for demanding a book on football in time for the worldcup despite him not liking the sport)
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby stripy_tie » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:17 am

LilMaibe wrote:
Ziriath wrote:I think she used to be a human some centuries ago, until some vampire bite her. And she did not forget it.
But there's also a fact that Nutt is a Black Hole Sue http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackHoleSue and the whole story is bent to his will and needs.


Thank you, finally someone who does agree
(Why yes, I did come back to say this. Okay, actually I did come back for a different topic, but step by step)
The whole bit about M not killing the orc, left alone anyone sparing him, has little to nothing to do with her once having been human, but is rather another bit of the orc's sueishness.
I said it before and I say it again, there's so much Sue when it comes to the orc that I can't really believe Sir Terry is serious about the orc and did not write him that bad on purpose (possible as some subtle FU towards his publisher for demanding a book on football in time for the worldcup despite him not liking the sport)


I really can't see Terry's publisher "demanding" anything from him, sure they might suggest a theme through his agent but that's about as far is it goes, even for an author that's selling poorly. Let alone for someone with Pratchett's selling power.

Personally I didn't think that much of UU, a few characters were excellent (Pepe) and there were some good moments (The Librarian as a goalkeeper) but the plot was pretty thin on the ground and it really didn't interest me that much.

Nice to see you back LilMaibe.
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Re: Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

Postby LilMaibe » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:42 am

It remains a bit odd to see Sir Terry mention he has no thing for football, game or otherwise, in interviews (need to look up the exact quote) and yet have a book with just that topic (at leats in the frame works) come out in time for the worldcup (and it's movie version scheduled straight away for this year, in time for the european cup).
Many defend the book by saying 'it is not about football' to which I can only say, if it were truly just for how fans can be, why not pick a different sport, make up a new one or move from the topic of sports entirely.

On a further note, please, before anyone goes to say
-the orc is not a sue cause he hates himself/has low selfesteem/etc and that's totally a flaw-
If the self-hate, self-doubt, etc would actually hinder him to do anything and it would take a lot, and I mean a lot, to overcome it if only particular, then it could be counted as flaw.
But as it is it is a fake-flaw, something usually only bad authors put into a story to have something to point at and say -my character ain't no sue, he has this big flaw, see?-

If there is one thing the orc achieves then it is to be a character like every good author should avoid writing it.
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