Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:23 pm

I have to confess up till now I would have said 'football commentator' when asked who tucholsky is.
And I have to say, you lost me now. I don't know what you are trying to say now :(

Oh, and stripy:
That's the board for you. We had far worse derailments already....*coughs*
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Postby BaldJean » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:31 pm

You are missing out on a very important and, what's more, extremely funny author; I think he was funnier than Pratchett even in his best works. "Where do the holes in the cheese come from?", for example; you will laugh your ass off when reading that. Or his novel "Castle Gripsholm".
What I am trying to say is: If you have to say something, bloody say it; don't wrap it up in mystery which we have to interpret afterwards.
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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:52 pm

Might give him a try if I find his books (mind you, I mean what I say when I put 'entertainment vacuum of germany' in my locationinfo....)

And, okay, straight out:

Ever since 'Nightwatch' the number of glaring beginner's mistakes (mary-sue characters, gaping plotholes, logic holes, blatant continuity errors within a few pages, pointless scenes and more) and other things you just don't do in a good novel in the Discworld novels increased dramatically.
I want to know what the heck is going on as what I see there is NOT, and I did do my research on that, explainable by Mr Pratchett's Alzheimer's.
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Postby BaldJean » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:10 pm

Well, we have different opinions on that again, I don't see the "beginner's mistakes" you see.
I don't know if you speak German (living in Germany does not necessarily mean you also speak the language), but if you do I will send you a private message with one of Tucholsky's texts.
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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:33 pm

Naw, need to go to the city tomorrow anyway, will check the library.

As for beginner's mistakes, an example:

Utter pointless and padding scenes:

In UA Ponder gives the ball from the cabinet to the orc and Trevor.
Okay.
What follows are several pages that have no purpose.
Except for the text trying to hammer home Andy is evil and then, again, show us how skilled and awesome the orc is, because he knows anatomy like (likely) noone else, knows how the ball's copy will be made and what will be a bit complicated, he speaks fluent dwarfish better than a dwarf (and not even uberwaldean dwarfish, what would make sense, no) and finally the scene informs us of a fetish dress.

Actuall impact on the story? None
New, needed information? None
Telling us that the guy we are constantly told is evil is, in fact, evil? Yep
Obnoxiously glorifying the orc by telling us how awesome he is and what awesome skills he has? Hell yes.

Opinions might differ, but that is something you learn to avoid when writing.
-Don't tell your readers what opinion they are to have of a character.
-Especially don't constantly tell them.
etc.

And I doubt I need to mention what is wrong with Mary-Sues.
In Interesting Times the sueishness was played for laughs with Lord Hong, but in UA we are (constantly) told by the text to take the orc serious, root for him, feel sorry for him, be amazed by his skills etc.
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Postby BaldJean » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:42 pm

You remind me of Beckmesser, finding many faults in Stolzing's song, but Stolzing wins the contest nevertheless, and rightly so.
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Postby LilMaibe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:46 pm

BaldJean wrote:You remind me of Beckmesser, finding many faults in Stolzing's song, but Stolzing wins the contest nevertheless, and rightly so.


Who?
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Postby BaldJean » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:54 pm

Beckmesser and Stolzing are cgaracters in Richard Wagner's opera "Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg". It is about a contest of singers, and Stolzing.a newcomer, is harshly criticized by Beckmesser for all the faults in his song.. The German expressions "Er ist ein Beckmesser" or "Beckmesserei", refer to people who stick to strict rules and find fault in everything that is not according to the rules, but missing the actual beauty.
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Postby LilMaibe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:15 am

BaldJean wrote:Beckmesser and Stolzing are cgaracters in Richard Wagner's opera "Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg". It is about a contest of singers, and Stolzing.a newcomer, is harshly criticized by Beckmesser for all the faults in his song.. The German expressions "Er ist ein Beckmesser" or "Beckmesserei", refer to people who stick to strict rules and find fault in everything that is not according to the rules, but missing the actual beauty.


Never heard that expression before. Are you certain it's not a local thing, Like 'Bolschen' for Bonbons (candy)?

While I see your point, I have to ask this:
I might not have seen the opera (as said, entertainment-vacuum) but I imagine that said character did not go and burp his song or 'play' his instruments by whacking it against a dead pig. (granted, there are people out there who would consider even that music)

The beginner's mistakes that spoil the recent books to me (and not only me, mind you) are like that though.
The rules broken here are rules, guidelines whatever you want to call it there to avoid spoiling a story.

It like the difference between
-Don't ever eat things considered fast food, because it's unhealthy- and -don't light your cigarette on the frigging high voltage line'
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Postby BaldJean » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:21 am

"Beckmesser" is definitely not a local term.
I will re-read "Unseen Aademicals" and tell you what I think about your objections. I only read it once so far; it is one of the more recently acquired books of Pratchett we have.
Here a link to the definition of "Beckmesser" in the German version of Wikipedia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beckmesser
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Postby LilMaibe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:26 am

BaldJean wrote:"Beckmesser" is definitely not a local term.
I will re-read "Unseen Aademicals" and tell you what I think about your objections. I only read it once so far; it is one of the more recently acquired books of Pratchett we have.


I know 'erbsenzählerei' for that...

Well, UA has a few bright moments, but sadly they feel rather scattered and often are spoiled by someone (the editor, perhabs? I'm certain Pratchett knows better) feeling the urge to explain the joke or just remind us of something we read a few pages ago.

On a side-note: Are you reading it in english or german, for, dear gods, the german translation is Hor-ri-ble. What were they thinking? (and I don't mean the sudden switch from 'Du' to 'Sie')
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Postby BaldJean » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:45 am

I am American by birth; I always read the English version, and so does Friede, who lived in England for a long time as a kid; her English is better than that of most native speakers.
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Postby LilMaibe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:55 am

Thank heavens. Seriously, the german translation is ....brrr....

EDIT: But to get back on topic (or at least attempting too)

I think what bothers me most about the scene with Pepe in UA was not that this vigilantism was there, but by who it was carried out.
If, as said, it would have been done by anyone who Andy did attack/threatened before, okay.
Carter, Trevor, even the orc.
Heck, even Billy would have made more sense, doing it so Andy won't go and upset his sister, who is happy now.

But Pepe?
Pepe just comes out of the blue (in every sense of the word).

What leads to another question: Seeing how pepe behaved throughtout the story, is he a psychic assassin or something?
LilMaibe
 

Help! I'm confused here!

Postby AgProv » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:05 am

Wasn't there a thread here a moment or two ago simply called "Snuff", to which the last contributor was Baldjean, who made a comment about Angua's gender-inclinations being slightly derailed by Sally ? I'm sure there was as I contributed a reply. But the system was playing bougreurs risibles and posted my comment twice. I made to delete one of the two postings, it took ages and several error messages, and now the whole blooming thing's vanished... please don't tell me I deleted the entire thread! On the Latest Books index page, it has it that the last post was made in January 1970, and that cannot be right, can it?

Do we have a glitch here?
Used to be too clever by half, but by virtue of consistent drinking, now only too clever by about a quarter. Banned from all BBC messageboards for being too much of an "uncceptable editorial risk".
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Postby meerkat » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:06 am

BaldJean wrote:You remind me of Beckmesser, finding many faults in Stolzing's song, but Stolzing wins the contest nevertheless, and rightly so.


Deviation Alert!


I love Meistersingers! I am going to see it on Jan 1st at Covent Garden! Can't wait for Beckmesser to make a right prat of himself! :lol:
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