Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

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Postby DaveC » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:30 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Finally - I can't remember if J-I-B said it in this thread or one of the others (why is it we've got at least 4 Snuff discussion threads BTW? :shock: ) about Terry's gradual slide as a writer - consider this viewpoint. I would put almost all of the DW books from The Truth onwards as 'sub-standard' as in not 'vintage' Terry. Of course there are exceptions (actually for me only Nightwatch and Thief of Time) depending on your own preferences but I think that Terry actually lost interest in the traditional Discworld with TT. Ironically this co-incides with the death of Josh Kirby but possibly also with Terry's father's last illness - certainly there's a ground shift in his writing at that time and significantly it's when the Lancre Witch series was downgraded to cameo status. So no, forgive me, I'm no longer a rabid reader of Terry, but I love and honour him for what he does write about with humour and courage and humanity, and in the last 10 years or so it's his non-fiction (Science) Discworld books and Nation that actually 'shine' more for me than the full on canon ones.
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I agree I certainly saw a change in style and it was weird that it coincided with the change of illustrator.The books since The Truth are unmistakenly thicker and more longwinded, but on the whole not less enjoyable, for me anyway. :)
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Postby LilMaibe » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:10 pm

getting it from a friend next week. Though she's not happy with it either.
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Postby raisindot » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:23 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:
raisindot wrote:Until recently, the dwarves and trolls were treated as the goblins are in Snuff by the human population--as lower level lifeforms. It was only when these non-human groups began to prosper economically that they began to gain grudging respect.

But speciesm is still rampant on the DW. Snuff simply portrays a more virulent form of it.

Yes extreme obviously - but trolls and dwarves were treated as lower lifeforms 'up until recently'? Really! :shock: :roll:

Trolls and Dwarves and Werewolves were in the Watch by Men at Arms weren't they? Chrysoprase (or someone quite like him) and the Stronginthearms were pretty much at liberty to join in and help burn down the Broken Drum as far back as CoM/LF weren't they? The dwarves were mending broomsticks for Granny way back in ER and Trolls taking part in MP, albeit as stuntmen - they were part of a social setup and not kept as possessions.


By 'recently,' I was referring to the time covered in the 'contemporary' DW books and really focusing on AM. Obviously, there's more interaction between humans and non-humans in the Ramtops and Uberwald, since there's a more even distribution of power and population among those species there.

Back to AM. In TFE, it is mentioned that there were no dwarves in AM until around 50 years or so ago. In the Keel period of Night Watch, the only non-human character is Reg Shoe, and he only becomes a zombie when he is killed at the end. Certainly there's no evidence of a large and visible non-human population there. Any dwarves or trolls in AM at that time would have been treated with the same level of disdain and speciesism as people like De Worde Snr. in The Truth and even the early Sam Vimes treated them. Even in Thud, Sybil's friend in Koom Valley believes all trolls walk around naked and should be housed in stables.

Speciesism never fades even in contemporary AM. Look at what everyone thought about both goblins and orcs in UA until Nutt demonstrated that the leopard could change its shorts. Look at how everyone treated golems until Dorfl demonstrated their sentience in Feet of Clay.
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Postby LilMaibe » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:28 pm

But there's an important point between Dorfl and the orc :
The orc is too prefect to be true.
Dorfl became a part of the society but still has to face prejudice and isn't equally accepted/etc by everyone.
The orc on the other hand... society adjusted to him and in the end the only one who dares to speak against him is the designated villain.
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Postby raisindot » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:32 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:
raisindot wrote:
Finally - I can't remember if J-I-B said it in this thread or one of the others (why is it we've got at least 4 Snuff discussion threads BTW? :shock: ) about Terry's gradual slide as a writer - consider this viewpoint. I would put almost all of the DW books from The Truth onwards as 'sub-standard' as in not 'vintage' Terry.


Interesting. I'm not so sure if he lost interest as much as he felt he needed to expand the scope of the series to include new characters and settings.

For me, Monstrous Regiment marks the first 'latter stage' 'adult' DW novel I had a hard time liking. Going Postal took me two readings (and an audio book listen) to appreciate it. Thud for me was a masterpiece, one of his top 5. Making Money was very problemmatic but for me had enough good scenes to in some ways make up for the sloggy bits.

For me, UA is the first truly subpar 'later stage' DW novel, where so much of it is so completely bad that it signals to me a real decline. Snuff, while better than UA, still retains the same narrative problems that plagued UA.
As I said before, how he managed to largely rebound to form with I Shall Wear Midnight between these two lesser works may have more to do with the greater editorial strictness one needs with a YA book that one needs with an adult book.
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Postby LilMaibe » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:39 pm

Another 'problem' (IMHO) with MR was that it also marks the first occassion of AM's portrayal as the ,let's call it, omnipotent force without which no other city/country/nation can do.
Vimes' role in MR (being the trigger for the solution) could as well have been fulfilled by a new character from one of the main nations of the book.
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Postby Tonyblack » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:56 pm

Please remember that this is a discussion with spoilers for Snuff. Many people visiting this thread will not have read the other books yet. So please beware of posting spoilers.

I will just say that A-M's interest in MR is perfectly natural seeing as their clacks towers are being threatened. And A-M has been the most important city on the Circle Sea since the earliest books.
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Postby Ogg » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:28 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote:As to the shock horror of my not bothering to get the hardback - I'm just not that into Terry these days that I have to get everything the minute it comes out. If it's in the publishing sausage machine before he eventually succumbs then it'll come out eventually - they're not going to stop printing the buggers are they? :lol:

Honestly - what absolute rubbish to suggest I'm not a true fan for daring to save my pennies to go to Ireland for the convention in a fortnight instead of paying through the nose for something I can get more cheaply in 6 months and I'm not in a tearing hurry to get to despite spoilers etc... 8) :twisted: Will I see you at Ennistymon on the 4th Nov I wonder - even though Terry's not going to be there? Does that make you the bad fan - of course not! :lol:

Ogg - thanks for the apology. :D Not really needed because it didn't really cause any offence and all opinion adds to the discussion... :wink:


Well, at least you noticed my apology, it was not my intention to doubt 'true fans'. I still say that anyone posting here in this actual 'Snuff' thread should read the book first and I reiterate that it's not that expensive either. Admittedly you can't all buy it in Tesco for £5 like I did but still, it's hardly a burden on the ole puse strings is it? :)
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Postby LilMaibe » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:37 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Please remember that this is a discussion with spoilers for Snuff. Many people visiting this thread will not have read the other books yet. So please beware of posting spoilers.

I will just say that A-M's interest in MR is perfectly natural seeing as their clacks towers are being threatened. And A-M has been the most important city on the Circle Sea since the earliest books.


Okay, it might be just my opinon, but to me it felt a bit forced. 'most important city' or not.
Its whole role in the book felt...I really don't know how to phrase it :(

EDIT: And once again apologise to everyone I offended with my opinion :( I feel horrible right now.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:26 pm

raisindot wrote:Speciesism never fades even in contemporary AM. Look at what everyone thought about both goblins and orcs in UA until Nutt demonstrated that the leopard could change its shorts. Look at how everyone treated golems until Dorfl demonstrated their sentience in Feet of Clay.

Jeff - NP with the fact that speciesism exists on the Disc as it evidently does and not just between humans v The Rest (as surely this is an exact description of the Troll/Dwarf dynamic :wink: ), just as to degree. Trolls are probably closest to goblins/orcs in terms of being looked down on by humans but they were never slaves as such surely - mainly because they have v. little reason to come into contact with humans ordinarily outside of the city and it's Dwarves that cause them problems as they inhabit the same territories.

The city migrations of course are all covered from 1983 in Roundworld as post John Keel AM - Nightwatch is the only book that covers that period and presumably at that time A-M was not the gold-lined streets attraction that it becomes when we get to the earliest AM we know from CoM onwards when Vetinari is arguably only just in charge and the city becomes more cosmopolitan that it attracts other species - would you go to a 'promised land' that didn't want/need your 'type' when you're King of the Mountain with all the gold you can handle back home? No draw there for Dwarves at least is there? :P

Obviously something happens in between to make it worthwhile for the Dwarves to migrate and for Troll skills to become viable within the city's remit - my point is they go there as migrant workers not as slaves because they provide some kind of function that humans don't supply that make it worth their while to leave their natural homes? :wink:

The goblins appear not to have had this choice and part of that is perhaps connected to their ancestral past as thralls of some more competent 'Dark Lord' - don't know whether there's an analogy to Middle Earth here in that they're partly 'created' or bred but in that fantasy world the Elf/Orc division was created by a Dark Lord in that he's supposed to have mutilated and genetically degraded Elves into a travesty of their original form (and the same with Men before we get into that argument too :roll: ) to effectively breed them to 'evil' or have them as walking zombies possessed by 'evil spirits' - that's the legendarium there with grounds for why ME orcs are so hated to the point of genocide - enslavement doesn't even get a look in there because they're completely aggressive and not wanted even as slaves... :lol:

I digress hugely but to suggest that Discworld trolls and dwarves were more than the recipients of general 'speciesism' to the point they were hunted and enslaved just isn't on the map. In John Keel's time there was 'just' no good reason for them to become economic migrants in AM - that's all, whether or not they were 'wanted' there. :wink:

Discuss :D
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Postby raisindot » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:29 pm

WARNING WILL ROBINSON: NON-SNUFF SPOILER AHEAD!

Jan Van Quirm wrote:I digress hugely but to suggest that Discworld trolls and dwarves were [b]more than the recipients of general 'speciesism' to the point they were hunted and enslaved just isn't on the map.[/b] In John Keel's time there was 'just' no good reason for them to become economic migrants in AM - that's all, whether or not they were 'wanted' there. :wink:
Discuss :D




Sure it's on the map. Maybe not on the map of AM (because, really, it's doubtful any human there would try to actually kill or enslave a troll or dwarf unless they were suicidal). But certainly in Uberwald, as indicated by the mounted troll's head on the wall of the Ankh Morpork embassy in Bjonk in TFE. At some point, in Uberwald at least, trolls were hunted by humans for sport.
Last edited by raisindot on Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby raisindot » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:32 pm

Tonyblack wrote:Please remember that this is a discussion with spoilers for Snuff. Many people visiting this thread will not have read the other books yet. So please beware of posting spoilers.

I will just say that A-M's interest in MR is perfectly natural seeing as their clacks towers are being threatened. And A-M has been the most important city on the Circle Sea since the earliest books.


First you post a warning about spoilers and then you include one in the next sentence. Work of genius, Tony! :D

All seriousness aside, given that it's hard to discuss one book without tying it to references in other books, I'd say rather than avoid revealing plot details of other books we simply put in a warning at the top of a response that there are other book spoilers. Hopefully, people will resist reading the rest of the message. Does that seem to work?
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Postby Tonyblack » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:50 pm

:lol: I was trying to be vague. :P
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:52 pm

raisindot wrote:WARNING WILL ROBINSON: NON-SNUFF SPOILER AHEAD! Sure it's on the map. Maybe not on the map of AM (because, really, it's doubtful any human there would try to actually kill or enslave a troll or dwarf unless they were suicidal). But certainly in Uberwald, as indicated by the mounted troll's head on the wall of the Ankh Morpork embassy in Bjonk in TFE. At some point, in Uberwald at least, trolls were hunted by humans for sport.

See!!!!! - there is life after pooh... (the Anglo-Japanese type :P )

Yes Jeff - and no troll ever accidently squished a human - no werewolf ever hunted them and no dwarf ever did whatever it is the dwarves are supposed to do that nobody tells them they're doing :lol: That's all sport-related (i.e. tribal :wink: ) and nothing to do with slavery or speciesism
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Postby RJH » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:16 pm

The Wonderful Fanny in all its glory:

Image

http://bricksandbooks.co.uk/2011/the-wonderful-fanny/

:lol: :lol:
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