raisindot wrote:Until recently, the dwarves and trolls were treated as the goblins are in Snuff by the human population--as lower level lifeforms. It was only when these non-human groups began to prosper economically that they began to gain grudging respect.
But speciesm is still rampant on the DW. Snuff simply portrays a more virulent form of it.
Yes extreme obviously - but trolls and dwarves were treated as lower lifeforms 'up until recently'? Really!
Trolls and Dwarves and Werewolves were in the Watch by Men at Arms weren't they? Chrysoprase (or someone quite like him) and the Stronginthearms were pretty much at liberty to join in and help burn down the Broken Drum as far back as CoM/LF weren't they? The dwarves were mending broomsticks for Granny way back in ER and Trolls taking part in MP, albeit as stuntmen - they were part of a social setup and not kept as possessions. They fitted into the social scenery more or less as they were capable of doing (given that Trolls are thicker at sea level). If you want a Roundworld comparison then how about the Italian, Jewish and Polish communities in the big cosmop cities of the USA in the last century? Were they treated as sub-human? They may not have been top of the tree but they weren't excluded or suppressed as such were they (like the Jews were in Germany and Russia yes, but that's why I'm using the US as the comparison
Goblins are indeed a recent addition to the Discworld Milieu for us
, yes but try to make out that Trolls and Dwarves were completely ostracised socially, certainly in A-M is absolutely ridiculous.
Your point about Gnolls is well made and they're certainly less well-regarded
than Dwarves certainly, in the same way that Dwarves will in turn denigrate Trolls and vice versa. That's different to being treated as sub-sentient
. Away from the cities they are powerful factions in their own right so even less true there. Terry simply hasn't written about goblins up until UA that's all and yes, boohoo they're treated abominably as slaves and sub-sentient and Vimes does something about it - good on him.
As to the shock horror of my not bothering to get the hardback - I'm just not that into Terry these days that I have to get everything the minute it comes out. If it's in the publishing sausage machine before he eventually succumbs then it'll come out eventually - they're not going to stop printing the buggers are they?
Honestly - what absolute rubbish to suggest I'm not a true fan for daring to save my pennies to go to Ireland for the convention in a fortnight instead of paying through the nose for something I can get more cheaply in 6 months and I'm not in a tearing hurry to get to despite spoilers etc...
Will I see you at Ennistymon on the 4th Nov I wonder - even though Terry's not going to be there? Does that make you the bad fan - of course not!
Finally - I can't remember if J-I-B said it in this thread or one of the others (why is it we've got at least 4 Snuff discussion threads BTW?
) about Terry's gradual slide as a writer - consider this viewpoint. I would put almost all
of the DW books from The Truth onwards as 'sub-standard' as in not 'vintage'
Terry. Of course there are exceptions (actually for me only Nightwatch and Thief of Time) depending on your own preferences but I think that Terry actually lost interest
in the traditional Discworld with TT. Ironically this co-incides with the death of Josh Kirby but possibly also with Terry's father's last illness - certainly there's a ground shift in his writing at that time and significantly it's when the Lancre Witch series was downgraded to cameo status. So no, forgive me, I'm no longer a rabid reader of Terry, but I love and honour him for what he does write about with humour and courage and humanity, and in the last 10 years or so it's his non-fiction (Science) Discworld books and Nation that actually 'shine' more for me than the full on canon ones.
Ogg - thanks for the apology.
Not really needed because it didn't really cause any offence and all opinion adds to the discussion...