Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Sister Jennifer » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:33 pm

Llamedosian wrote:I would say they are more like Roma gypsies (and, to a lesser extent, like Irish Travellers). What do people think?


I think that your whole post is spot on. Nicely written, well observed.

I like Wilikins but on a second read of Snuff I don't like Vimes's double standard as to Wilikins & his 'hard man' goings-on. It seems un-Vimes like to me. All this time we've seen Vimes rail against people who think they are outside the law, through privilege or whatever and here he is looking the other way with Wilikins. Is it ok because Wilikins saved his family in Thud & is doing everyone a sneaky favour? Nope, not good enough.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:49 am

The only thing he could be "looking the other way" with regard to Wilikins is what happened to Stratford. and of that he couldn't prove anything. And its not like Vimes hasn't done it before. or found some justice when no proof could be seen. A certain fire comes to mind. Or a certain 30 men and a dog.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby alicenanjing » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:40 pm

What happened with Stratford was self-defence, pure and simple. It's true that Willikins just stood there and let Stratford attack him, but for a much older man armed only with a comb and his experience to kill a much younger averred psychopath, fit and limber, who rushes him, armed with a knife with which he has just killed several policemen, is not murder any way you look at it. Where is the double standard? Not even a policeman would go out of his way to keep the bastard alive under these circumstances, not if trying to do so endangers his life further, and we shouldn't expect them to. They sign up to keep the public safe, not to throw their life away.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby Bouncy Castle » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:48 pm

alicenanjing wrote:What happened with Stratford was self-defence, pure and simple. It's true that Willikins just stood there and let Stratford attack him, but for a much older man armed only with a comb and his experience to kill a much younger averred psychopath, fit and limber, who rushes him, armed with a knife with which he has just killed several policemen, is not murder any way you look at it. Where is the double standard? Not even a policeman would go out of his way to keep the bastard alive under these circumstances, not if trying to do so endangers his life further, and we shouldn't expect them to. They sign up to keep the public safe, not to throw their life away.



But didn't Vimes arrest Carcer in Night Watch (at the end) and expressly tell Vetinari that Carcer should have a fair trial?
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:39 pm

Bouncy Castle wrote:
alicenanjing wrote:What happened with Stratford was self-defence, pure and simple. It's true that Willikins just stood there and let Stratford attack him, but for a much older man armed only with a comb and his experience to kill a much younger averred psychopath, fit and limber, who rushes him, armed with a knife with which he has just killed several policemen, is not murder any way you look at it. Where is the double standard? Not even a policeman would go out of his way to keep the bastard alive under these circumstances, not if trying to do so endangers his life further, and we shouldn't expect them to. They sign up to keep the public safe, not to throw their life away.



But didn't Vimes arrest Carcer in Night Watch (at the end) and expressly tell Vetinari that Carcer should have a fair trial?


And Wolfgang?
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:55 pm

raptornx01 wrote:The only thing he could be "looking the other way" with regard to Wilikins is what happened to Stratford. and of that he couldn't prove anything. And its not like Vimes hasn't done it before. or found some justice when no proof could be seen. A certain fire comes to mind. Or a certain 30 men and a dog.


SPOILER ALERT

The Vimes of Snuff, who thinks about the morality of his actions and fights against his own inner beast, was born on the desert of Klatch near the end of Jingo. Before this book, Vimes really was mainly a crime-solver who only accidentally discovered that the smaller crimes were symptoms of bigger crimes. The 'certain fire' was the act of a Vimes who was dedicated to upending the social order of things through vigiliante-type actions. The Vimes of post-Jingo books would never have set such a fire.

After Jingo, the importance of the Law (and in his own role in enforcing it without going beyond it) became a cornerstone of his thinking. Vimes' actions in TFE, some of which involved killing of people, was done completely in self-defense (the bandits), or, in the case of Wolfgang, a vigilante act that had been preceded by legal actions that failed to cause Wolfgang to surrender. Remember, too, that Wolfgang was attacking Vimes when Vimes killed him; an act of self-defense, but even Vimes realizes that he was on very moral shaky ground.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:10 pm

But that is also the same Vimes that used Ginger beer to get a confession out of a prisoner. Albeit the threat of ginger beer, but still.

as for wolfgang,

“There were a lot of things he could say. ‘Son of a bitch!’ would have been a good one. Or he could say, ‘Welcome to civilization!’ He could have said, ‘Laugh this one off!’ He might have said, ‘Fetch!’ But he didn’t, because if he had said any of those things then he’d have known that what he had just done was murder.”
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby alicenanjing » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:25 am

Regarding Carcer: yes, Vimes captures him alive to stand trial, but he puts himself in considerable danger to do so. It is a choice, not an obligation, not even a moral obligation. If you are a policeman and you announce someone is under arrest, and he doesn't submit, you give him fair warning and if he still resists, and your life is in danger, you are justified in killing him, although it is considered good form if you endeavour not to do so ( at least, that's what they usually say on TV, I'm not speaking from personal experience). And Carcer was smart enough to stop struggling and put his knife down (one of them, at least) when it looked as if he was going to be killed, to give the impression that he was surrendering, and so Vimes couldn't feel justified in killing him, even though he knew that Carcer was sure to try to kill him at the first opportunity. But my point is: it would be insane to demand that policemen do not defend their lives with the same vigour we laymen and -women are entitled to. And doing your utmost to keep a killer alive while he is doing his best to kill you is something that cannot be required of anyone. It can only be a personal choice to go above and beyond - admirable, but by no means necessary.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:40 pm

raptornx01 wrote:But that is also the same Vimes that used Ginger beer to get a confession out of a prisoner. Albeit the threat of ginger beer, but still.

That's no different than the typical "good cop/bad cop" routine that presumably really does occur in police stations, since if it's shown on telly and movies, it MUST be true. :D It's not against the law, since it's not putting the perp in harm's way, nor is a specific threat being mentioned.

raptornx01 wrote:as for wolfgang,

“There were a lot of things he could say. ‘Son of a bitch!’ would have been a good one. Or he could say, ‘Welcome to civilization!’ He could have said, ‘Laugh this one off!’ He might have said, ‘Fetch!’ But he didn’t, because if he had said any of those things then he’d have known that what he had just done was murder.”


Absolutely, and you're proving the point. Vimes knows what he did here was perfectly legal both in AM terms (he was applying AM laws regarding arrest to give Wolfie the chance to surrender) as well as Uberwald terms (where there is no law other than the will of the powerful). Yet, in spite of this, he knows that what he did was, if not murder itself, certainly justifiable homicide. The situation is no different than when cops try to get a deranged killer to surrender, and, when the killer refuses or tries to attack the cops, the cops shoot him full of holes. It's all perfectly legal.

The Vimes of the pre-Jingo books wouldn't have had as much of a moral problem in this situation, since his views about the Law had not evolved to this point. The Vimes of Snuff would have sent WIllikens out to follow Wolfgang and armed him with the same firework.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby feanor » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:53 pm

Ayup All...

Just to let you know that I think I'm about halfway through SNUFF, as I couldn't sleep last night and got to around Page176, just after Vimes leaves the Goblin Caves, having seen the Corpse, and will Presumably start tooling up for his showdown with 'The Magistrates' (Although this is PURE speculation and doesn't need spoiling, Thanks LOL !)

I have to say I was completely sucked in, really Enjoyed it and only stopped reading at Two Thirty this morning when one of my Elderly Lady Cats Peed on a Tarpaulin upstairs that usually has a Clean Litter Tray on it... But didn't this time... (My fault I suppose for one not being in there, but there was a freshly changed one Downstairs !) ... so after clearing the Detritus, I was actually tired after a cup of Tea at Three AM...

It's a great story, But I Don't like the Poo thing with Sam Junior... IUsually with kids, Isn't it Willies and Boobies ? But It just doesn't feel funny...

I have the book in front of me and am tempted to open it and have half an hour on the Sofa before Tea, But what to read in Bed TONIGHT... ?

Sorry if this is a King-Sized Bore peeps...
I'm glad that all my problems have now Resolved down to where my next Banana is coming from...
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:54 pm

raisindot wrote:
raptornx01 wrote:But that is also the same Vimes that used Ginger beer to get a confession out of a prisoner. Albeit the threat of ginger beer, but still.

That's no different than the typical "good cop/bad cop" routine that presumably really does occur in police stations, since if it's shown on telly and movies, it MUST be true. :D It's not against the law, since it's not putting the perp in harm's way, nor is a specific threat being mentioned.

raptornx01 wrote:as for wolfgang,

“There were a lot of things he could say. ‘Son of a bitch!’ would have been a good one. Or he could say, ‘Welcome to civilization!’ He could have said, ‘Laugh this one off!’ He might have said, ‘Fetch!’ But he didn’t, because if he had said any of those things then he’d have known that what he had just done was murder.”


Absolutely, and you're proving the point. Vimes knows what he did here was perfectly legal both in AM terms (he was applying AM laws regarding arrest to give Wolfie the chance to surrender) as well as Uberwald terms (where there is no law other than the will of the powerful). Yet, in spite of this, he knows that what he did was, if not murder itself, certainly justifiable homicide. The situation is no different than when cops try to get a deranged killer to surrender, and, when the killer refuses or tries to attack the cops, the cops shoot him full of holes. It's all perfectly legal.

The Vimes of the pre-Jingo books wouldn't have had as much of a moral problem in this situation, since his views about the Law had not evolved to this point. The Vimes of Snuff would have sent WIllikens out to follow Wolfgang and armed him with the same firework.


But he didn't send Wilikins out for stratford, thats the thing. he didn't know about that until Vetinari told him, and even at that moment he knew he would never be able to prove it. Wilikins himself said, when stratford asked, that Sam didn't know, and to his mind, would never know. and he (sam) gave no indication, no indication whatsoever that he was lying when he told vetinari he didn't know about it. Wilikins decided on his own to follow the cart. and once stratford escaped again dealt with the situation once and for all.

Where as with Wolfgang, he knew exactly what would happen. he planned from the start to kill wolvie, and he knew how to do it. the "legal actions" were to cover his ass, thats it. Unlike with stratford where sam captured him TWICE, and both times he escaped.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:23 pm

raptornx01 wrote:But he didn't send Wilikins out for stratford, thats the thing. he didn't know about that until Vetinari told him, and even at that moment he knew he would never be able to prove it. Wilikins himself said, when stratford asked, that Sam didn't know, and to his mind, would never know. and he (sam) gave no indication, no indication whatsoever that he was lying when he told vetinari he didn't know about it. Wilikins decided on his own to follow the cart. and once stratford escaped again dealt with the situation once and for all.


Vimes may not have sent Willikens out, but he certainly knew that Willikens would somehow be tracking Stratford' back to AM. What other explanation would there have been for Willikens not being at the Ramkin mansion as Vimes and his family were packing up? If Willikens were acting as the butler, rather than the mercenary, he would have been packing bags for Vimes. All throughout Snuff Vimes talks about Willikens not being subject to the rules of the Watch--and using this as threat against others.

And while Vimes was certainly technically correct when he said he knew nothing about how Stratford was killed, he absolutely knew that Willikens did it. So much so that he made a conscious decision not to ask Willikens about it or make inquiries, for if he did, he might come across evidence that would implicate WIllikens. In this case, he chose personal loyalty over his commitment to seeking justice, even for bastards like Stratford.

raptornx01 wrote:Where as with Wolfgang, he knew exactly what would happen. he planned from the start to kill wolvie, and he knew how to do it. the "legal actions" were to cover his ass, thats it. Unlike with stratford where sam captured him TWICE, and both times he escaped.


Whether Vimes intended to kill Wolfie is debatable. He knew that he could not let Wolfie remain free and unpunished, and he knew he had the means to kill him, but it also extremely likely that if Wolfie had surrendered (or had merely been knocked unconscious by the firework) VImes would have arrested him, rather than killed him. If only to demonstrate to the Uberwaldians how justice works in AM.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:10 pm

raisindot wrote:
raptornx01 wrote:But he didn't send Wilikins out for stratford, thats the thing. he didn't know about that until Vetinari told him, and even at that moment he knew he would never be able to prove it. Wilikins himself said, when stratford asked, that Sam didn't know, and to his mind, would never know. and he (sam) gave no indication, no indication whatsoever that he was lying when he told vetinari he didn't know about it. Wilikins decided on his own to follow the cart. and once stratford escaped again dealt with the situation once and for all.


Vimes may not have sent Willikens out, but he certainly knew that Willikens would somehow be tracking Stratford' back to AM. What other explanation would there have been for Willikens not being at the Ramkin mansion as Vimes and his family were packing up? If Willikens were acting as the butler, rather than the mercenary, he would have been packing bags for Vimes. All throughout Snuff Vimes talks about Willikens not being subject to the rules of the Watch--and using this as threat against others.

And while Vimes was certainly technically correct when he said he knew nothing about how Stratford was killed, he absolutely knew that Willikens did it. So much so that he made a conscious decision not to ask Willikens about it or make inquiries, for if he did, he might come across evidence that would implicate WIllikens. In this case, he chose personal loyalty over his commitment to seeking justice, even for bastards like Stratford.


Suspected, maybe, but not "absolutely knew". But what he would have known was that there would be no way to prove it.

raisindot wrote:
raptornx01 wrote:Where as with Wolfgang, he knew exactly what would happen. he planned from the start to kill wolvie, and he knew how to do it. the "legal actions" were to cover his ass, thats it. Unlike with stratford where sam captured him TWICE, and both times he escaped.


Whether Vimes intended to kill Wolfie is debatable. He knew that he could not let Wolfie remain free and unpunished, and he knew he had the means to kill him, but it also extremely likely that if Wolfie had surrendered (or had merely been knocked unconscious by the firework) VImes would have arrested him, rather than killed him. If only to demonstrate to the Uberwaldians how justice works in AM.


and replace Vimes with Wilikins and wolfie with stratford and you'd have the exact scenario in snuff (minus the last sentence ofcourse). and He still could have claimed arrest rights since Vimes had made him a temporary copper.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raisindot » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:53 pm

raptornx01 wrote:
raisindot wrote:
raptornx01 wrote:Where as with Wolfgang, he knew exactly what would happen. he planned from the start to kill wolvie, and he knew how to do it. the "legal actions" were to cover his ass, thats it. Unlike with stratford where sam captured him TWICE, and both times he escaped.


Whether Vimes intended to kill Wolfie is debatable. He knew that he could not let Wolfie remain free and unpunished, and he knew he had the means to kill him, but it also extremely likely that if Wolfie had surrendered (or had merely been knocked unconscious by the firework) VImes would have arrested him, rather than killed him. If only to demonstrate to the Uberwaldians how justice works in AM.


and replace Vimes with Wilikins and wolfie with stratford and you'd have the exact scenario in snuff (minus the last sentence ofcourse). and He still could have claimed arrest rights since Vimes had made him a temporary copper.


Actually, not so. At most, Vimes temporarily made Willikens a temporary copper during certain parts of the book when he needed him to serve in that role, but by the end Willikens was no longer acting as a temporary copper but as a private citizen, since the crime had been solved and no further police action was necessary. In Thud, Willikens had the right to kill the dark dwarfs invading Vimes' home under the rules of home self-defense, but he did not have the legal authority to kill Stratford. Whereas, as a copper operating under both diplomatic laws and the universe copper rules of "hot pursuit," Vimes did have the legal AM authority to arrest, and then if not possible, kill Wolfie if he were attacked first.
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Re: Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

Postby raptornx01 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:26 pm

wilikins could still claim self defense, as would be his right even AS a citizen. and his status as copper is debateble since all that was said was that he wished to not still be one once they were back in AM, it was never rescinded on screen (as it were). he could make the argument that he wasn't in AM at that point, thus technically still a copper based on his oral agreement with Sam.
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