DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

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DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Who's Wee Dug » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:23 pm

This is DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY to the lions, it's just a pity the lion did not manage to get amongst and start ripping them apart, this makes me so mad. :evil: :evil:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/v ... rica-video
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby TinatheConfused » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:25 pm

Mere words cannot express my pain at seeing this.
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Conforumist » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:07 am

I think we should let the hunters lose in there and let the lions have some fun.

How can man still be this f'd up???
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Sister Jennifer » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:06 am

^ Good question.

I couldn't watch the film clip. I've seen something similar that Louis Theroux did. There is nothing despicable a human being with money and time on their hands won't do.
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Bouncy Castle » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:45 am

From reading the replies on here, I'm not even going to click on that link.
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby The Mad Collector » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:20 am

I'm with you Bouncy
One of those? Oh I'm sure I have one somewhere..

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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:59 am

On a purely impersonal point what's the difference between that and what happens to the male calves born to dairy cattle all over the world?

Yes, that kind of canned hunting ranch is horrible, but there are better run set ups where the animals do lead long and relatively healthy and safeguarded lives on the equivalent of a game reserve. It's a simple commercial deal and the breeding farm they showed may well supply animals that will be sent to kosher national parks like Kruger where no hunting at all is allowed. Fact is that hunting reserves actually fund and support the sanctuaries in S. Africa and other African countries and, if the ordinary local people are involved, it very often has a positive effect on lowering poaching and bringing in much needed revenue to the villages to raise their standard of living, which is still frankly disgustingly squalid in rural and 'wilderness' areas.

The sort of people who go to those places are despicable and like people say here wouldn't last 2 minutes if they were hunting 'for real', but they have to pay through the nose for the privilege as hunting farms have to be licensed and it keeps the illegal hunting and poaching down to a minimum, simply because there's a big enough market for it. From an industry PoV they breed animals for a purpose like any commercial dairy or meat farm, but in that field only the best animals are used for trophy hunting and it's several years before they're deemed large or fiercesome enough to actually get to that size (this applies more to antelopes where it's the size of horn that makes them attractive enough for trophies, but with lion most hunters prefer full-maned males) so females and young males actually may survive much longer in captivity than in the wild.

That's the argument for the better run establishments - the place shown in the vid looks really chatty and the 'hunters' seemed to be appalling shots, but again that lion was at least three or four years old and had led an 'easy' life in comparison with one from a non-hunting reserve. There's more than conservation at stake in these countries where human life is still risky and difficult, so western culture green attitudes are sometimes not viable options where they need hard currency much more than 'bunny-hugging' morals. :(
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Tonyblack » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:14 pm

Or what about the breeding of pheasants for "game" in Britain? Is that really so different?
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Conforumist » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:03 am

Jan and Tony, you're both right of course.

I don't even "leisure" fish anymore. I think it's wrong to put an animal through trauma for my own pleasure.
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Tonyblack » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:33 am

My friend from Shropshire visited over the last few days. On her way down she and her sister came across ten dead badgers laid out on the road. It seems the farmers over here have wasted no time in implementing the badger cull. :(
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby raisindot » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:47 pm

Jan, you make some very excellent points there.

My immediate gut reaction to this is disgust, because there are plenty of these kinds of "lazy hunter" farms in the U.S., where they'll toss out some tranquilized bear or deer from a cage onto a 4 acre lot and some rich a**hole will pay a fortune just to walk in, look at the stoned animal and shoot it. This is called fun.

Personally, in no way do I believe that these places (in the U.S.) provide any kind of benefit, financial or otherwise, to conservation causes. The best thing that can be said about them is at least the land is preserved in a semi-natural state rather than be turned into office parks and strip malls.

As for hunting, I firmly believe that the only valid kind of hunting is that in which there is some kind of challenge to the game--trailing, stalking, waiting for hours to get one shot, huge chance of getting mauled, etc--and that hunters should have to use what they kill for some purpose--for meat, for clothing, for a rug, whatever.
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:02 pm

It depends where you want to hunt as well I think. I hate guns and I'd never go near one, so I've never been to a hunting reserve but I have stayed at a B&B near Bulawayo where they took serious photographic, hunting and standard game tourists on escorted safaris and having talked to clients staying there for all those types of vacation. I can get how there's a buzz that you'd have from hunting animals in their natural habitat if you're a serious sport hunter and not particularly fussed with a shopping list and a fat wallet to pay for it to be neatly delivered to you.

I've also got no real problem with properly organised hunting establishments who breed non-endangered species to be hunted. Lions are pressured in the wild in Africa with disease and habitat encroachment, but they breed beautifully in captivity (being social cats anyway) so they're not going to go extinct. The average hunting reserve in Southern Africa countries (more famous safari destinations in East Africa seem to have been slow to embrace hunting, although you can do it there) generally have large areas left wild for the herd animals and some predators left to run free. The breeding stock species like the bigger horned species and large predatory mammals are controlled, but still get to grow up fairly naturally and are weaned before they're sold on, but the ones that will be hunted will be looked after and fed live game so the clients can get a proper hunting experience - some establishments do overland camping trips (mostly on foot) or even hunt with bows of various types, even traditional longbows rather than sport crossbows etc.

They don't run these sorts of businesses out of the goodness of their hearts, but there is still a strong conservation element because some of these animals, like the lion, are increasingly at risk in the wild, even in the national parks and really private game ranches may be the last viably 'safe' environment for really endangered creatures (like the black rhino which is virtually extinct in some places now) with high quality security setups to foil organised commercial poaching. Some of these animals wouldn't be around much longer without the hunting market to buoy up the ecological tourist markets and, like I said, if local people are involved, it stops them poaching for the pot because they then have a reason not to as they can have a share of the profits and benefit more by investing in helping to keep the wildlife safe(r).

It's a callous argument to some extent, because beautiful animals are brought up to be killed but in most respects it's not as bad as grubbing a tenuous living in the wild, even in a game sanctuary, where there's disease and predators to be avoided - why do you think there are such large herds of ungulates and so many cubs born in a litter - large proportions of baby animals don't even make it to adolescence... And as one savvy game guide said to us when we were having this debate under the stars in camp in Zimbabwe -
Where's your wildlife in Europe? Don't tell us how to look out for our animals - we know how valuable they are.
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Penfold » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:49 pm

I wasn't going to join this debate but your points are spot on, Jan, with my personal experiences. The game reserve I worked on catered for hunting trips of the proper sort, with meat from the kill being served in the restaurant and the local taxidermist getting a fair profit from setting the trophy. The price for a buffalo (when I was there in the 90's) was around 60,000 Rand which the lodge used to fund it's fencing and wildlife on their reserve. Money from the hunters also helped them pay for the trapping and relocation of endangered wild dog when a pack strayed into the area (something that could have destroyed the livelihood of the local cattle farmers). My friend also spent four nights sleeping rough in the bush, tracking a wounded buck that had been shot by an inept hunter, who had lied about his hunting experience, in order to put it out of its pain. (My mate was the guide for this one who stands as a back up shot in case the hunter misses the target and only wounds the animal. The hunter shot without warning before my mate had readied himself.) My mate had to be restrained when he came back as he wanted to use his spare bullets on the idiot hunter.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is responsible hunting and hunters out there that boost the local economy (in some quite deprived areas) tremendously that would probably welcome the closure of such places mentioned in the opening post. These serious hunters held these places and the people who used them in utter contempt.

BTW, I always had a side of kudu or some other deer in my freezer for food that had been taken from proper hunting trips.

I did meet someone who hunted with a bow and arrow. A South African broadcasting company was filming him (and others) as part of a documentary. This fellow had gotten permission to go and hunt an elephant (as part of a licensed cull). :shock:
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Square12 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:20 pm

WARNING some potentially contentious opinions:
Ok personally I disagree with the killing/harming of animals for entertainment/sport, I think it is neither. This includes: bull fighting, fox hunting, trophy hunting, cock fighting, real fur coats, circuses (performing dogs and parrots are exceptions). However I think there are always going to be wealthy over entitled individuals who are going to do it regardless of the law, so I'd prefer they do it in an area where the animal has been specifically bred for said purpose. I do also think that there is a degree of distinction between pheasant etc and lion. The main one being that the end result does contain a degree of practicality in that the animal is at least consumed. As such I don't have a big problem with the canned hunting of kudu, gazelle etc so long as the meat is consumed and if the hunter then keeps the skin as a trophy to show everyone his mighty prowess, to match his flash sports car and various other ego massagers then so be it. Land based predators however are never, to my knowledge considered palatable. Even omnivores, that have not over millenia been selectively bred usually are far less palatable than ruminants found in the same environment, which I can personally vouch for. I love most cuts of pig, whereas when I tried bear in Romania, (only a few restaurants are licensed to serve it, and even then it can only come from bears that have returned to human populations after at least one attempt at relocation) I found it very bland. All that said I'd rather an animal lead a mostly relaxed and pleasant life, with a relatively quick albeit terrifying demise, in a partially controlled setting (from what I could understand of the concept, once the lion gets marked for death it isn't going to get a chance to escape, with a wound that could then fester) than a species be wiped out due to illegal poaching. mankind for millenia has bred and or farmed cattle, sheep, goats, pigs, fowl, geese, ducks, horses, camels, pheasants, reindeer, guinea pigs, deer etc etc etc in almost every culture and civilisation and I don't see a huge degree of difference.
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Re: DOWNRIGHT CRUELTY

Postby Conforumist » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:08 am

You know it's just a prequel to The Hunger Games.

I just struggle with breeding animals to be hunted and killed. I'm sure an animal like a lion does not die with one shot every time. It seems inhumane. I eat many types of meat, but I'd like to "hope" that the animals are being treated in a humane manner.

I still come back to the fact that, people still need to kill, to get their rocks off.

Personally, I would get much more pleasure out of working with these animals to integrate them back into the wild than shooting them.
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