Carrot - Love Him or Hate Him?

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What do you think of Carrot?

I hate Carrot
3
10%
I love Carrot
16
52%
He's OK
12
39%
 
Total votes : 31

Postby swreader » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:02 am

rissoles wrote:Carrot is overtly bland and ingenuous yet he betrays alarming subtlety and deviousness when the moment requires.

Carrot is honourable and trustworthy yet has been known to pursue his own agenda when needed.

Carrot is a very complex character not easily dismissed.

Carrot is quite spectacular.

and you just got to love him...


Sorry to disagree in part--and the part I disagree with is that Carrot is a CHARACTER not a person. And I think that TP can't decide what he wants to do with him.

Pratchett seems to try various and sundry things with Carrot's character--but they change from book to book--making him not so much a complex as an unevenly developed character. Contrast Pratchett's us of Vimes and for that matter Vetinari- both of whom develop over the course of the series of novels in ways that are 1) consistent with the character as a whole and 2) used to explore ideas that Pratchett wants the reader to think about.

I wonder if Pratchett actually sees Carrot as a comic character like Colon and Nobby--only at the opposite end of the comic spectrum? Carrot is certainly a figure of fun in G!G! when he is so unbelievably unsophisticated that even the heroic things he does are funny. The one novel I think where Pratchett tried to use Carrot as a serious character was MaA, where the role he plays is certainly significant and serious. And his reaction when he discovers that Angua has been "killed" by the Assassin's bullets shows real feeling--both anguish & hope.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, from that point on Pratchett basically puts him in as a comic figure who does nearly everything better than anyone else (for example in Jingo) but whose behavior in regard to Angua makes no sense at all in terms of MaA (preceding it) or 5th Elephant. I think that Pratchett has gotten tired of him -- so he keeps telling us that everybody loves Carrot. But Carrot does nothing really to make us love him, and often is almost a parody of THE HERO. And by the time we get to 5th Elephant, I don't find him funny at all--I think he's a nuisance & a bore. And I most definitely do not love him.
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Postby Catch-up » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:46 pm

Thanks Chris & Tiffany! :D I think we're mostly over it ("He's only mostly dead!"). I'm to the point of just pretending that it's not happening and getting on with our lives. :?

I've tried to think of different ways that Carrot's character coud evolve. Go back home and develop his early life more? There doesn't seem to be much there. Have him become king? I can't see that working without taking Vetinari out of the picture and causing a permanent rift between Carrot and Vimes. Have him marry Angua and have children? Maybe. Force Carrot into a situation where he has to consider abandoning his morals and maybe struggling with a dark side like Vimes? That could be interesting, but I think it would take something huge, like someone taking Angua's life.

Forgive my poor memory, but is there anything that's been written from "inside" Carrot's head - like the way he does with Vimes?
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:58 pm

Catch-up wrote:
Forgive my poor memory, but is there anything that's been written from "inside" Carrot's head - like the way he does with Vimes?
I don't think so - maybe in Guards! Guards! But not generally.
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Postby Catch-up » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:30 pm

Tonyblack wrote:
Catch-up wrote:
Forgive my poor memory, but is there anything that's been written from "inside" Carrot's head - like the way he does with Vimes?
I don't think so - maybe in Guards! Guards! But not generally.


Maybe that would make him more interesting and help with some of the odd choices?
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Postby Tonyblack » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:48 pm

Terry just can't seem to get into Carrot's head and so we don't know how he's thinking - another reason that he's a poor character.

We tend to 'hear' what Vimes thinks Carrot is thinking and what Angua thinks Carrot is thinking - but not the man himself.
"Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:20 pm

Catch-up wrote:
Tonyblack wrote:
Catch-up wrote:
Forgive my poor memory, but is there anything that's been written from "inside" Carrot's head - like the way he does with Vimes?
I don't think so - maybe in Guards! Guards! But not generally.


Maybe that would make him more interesting and help with some of the odd choices?


I think in G!G! we do sort of have some glimpses into Carrot's internal workings through the letters home? So there we see his general naivety and total lack of insight into what's for him a totally alien environment at first - so you get the imbalance of how he was before and after coming to Ankh-Morpork. The former's done mainly for laughs of course and probably why we're much more disposed towards him in that first appearance than since then, when he's matured and lost some of the starry eyed superficial acceptance of those first months?

Maybe in a way it's a statement on urban life and the more usual hard-headedness of city cops - with Carrot now he's still wanting to give the benefit of the doubt to most people and has retained a measure of assuming everyone has a certain amount of goodness in them? Maybe we're seeing a comment on modern policing here with the need to be seen to support PC (how could I resist! :wink: ) concepts like having 'ethnic' officers and the 'human' rights aspects and the older less tolerant methods which are much more realistic of course certainly on AM terms :twisted: And Carrot and Vimes are the 2 embodiments of those methodsm so it's almost a paradox because they are both now fair-minded and pro-active, but their ethics have polarised and it's a heart and brain kind of balance with Vimes as the passionately tough street-cop and Carrot as the more 'reasoned' toeing the line approach but also self-deluded because of his way of seeing people more in black and white?

Sometimes I think the Watch is a little like the Thin Blue Line? There are elements there of what Pterry does but in a different mix as there it's Rowan Atkinson's uniformed Inspector who's the cynical one trying to keep up with right on liberal methods and the apalling DI Fowler who's off in an enthusiastic totally illogical Starsky and Hutch fantasy (actually for us in the UK its more Sweeney but that's not a comedy of course! :lol: ) in a sleepy Home Counties town where most people are mostly law-abiding - same idea different niche and twist :wink:
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Postby Lady Vetinari » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:26 pm

I voted for the Ok, option, mainly because he is too good to be true.

I also agree that Terry should put a closure on his relationship with Angua.
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Carrot for mad dictator!

Postby mran6ry » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:53 pm

I agree with Parkstee i love carrot but would sell bodly organs to see him go Caligula! Imagine old Vimes havign to take on Carrot to save the city, guide against charm and sheer muscle.
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Postby Batty » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:09 pm

Considereing Carrot's upbringing, he arrived in AM as a naive boy who saw the good in everyone.
He isn't used to lying and so his face portrays his emotions - which is one method that Vetinari uses to know when Vimes is being less than honest in his reporting. If Carrot reacts, then Vimes is lying - as simple as that.

Carrot is beginning to learn guile though, but I agree that he should be developed more. I don't see him as a comedy character, just as someone who represents the innocent and naive people who exist.

Just a thought though. Carrot learns more about the people of AM than anyone else, as he is welcomed and trusted by everyone he meets.
Could his naivety be a smokescreen to help him integrate and to find out everything that he needs to know? He may be cleverer and more devious than you think!
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Postby Tonyblack » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:21 pm

I think that Vetinari is perfectly capable of knowing when Vimes is being less than honest with him, without Carrot. :wink:

And I think that Vimes is quite happy to let Vetinari know if he's lying. :lol:
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Postby Captain Turnip » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:57 pm

I voted "Love Him" - 'cause I do. OK, so he sounds a little too good to be true - its fantasy ;) . I like his honesty, his simplicity (not to be confused with stupidity, because he ain't stupid), and his general demeanor
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Postby Byakuran » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:40 pm

Um, I noticed you've all pretty much covered everything that CAN be said... But I always got the feeling that Carrot was an interesting character because he seems so plain yet it's impossible to predict what he'll do next. I have to disagree about people saying he's evolved unevenly unlike the other characters though. To begin with, he was slightly dim-witted, couldn't even write to save his life... but he slowly begins to use that as a cape, and you only catch glimpses of his "true self" occasionally. That's something that's become more and more consistent as the character developed. I like the point that Batty made; he has proved that he's devious enough to haggle with AM's finest on a good day (probably) and he has the entire city's trust... There are still possibilities for further development, especially now Diamond King of Trolls has made his appearance... Kingship might become fashionable ;)
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