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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:10 pm

Fljotsdale - I'm doing a comparitive allegory of evolution against the OT creation myth. :wink:

So evolutionary 1st human humans calculated from the last Ice Age (in fairness as nobody really knows when they 1st appeared) so, 20,000 years ago v. OT's first couple of humans 6,000 years ago. Evolutionary people would not have been writing at that stage of development would they? But they and their kids would have been able to tell stories of the early times and so have at least another 8,000 years or so to start embellishing orally during the Old and New Stone Ages, when they got around to learning how to make fired clay pots and start making little marks on wet clay, which gradually became symbols of language? :P

The Assyrians and other fertile crescent cultures could most definitely write around the 6,000 (and counting) year mark, so maybe that's where the OT dating stems from, but Assyrians, though semitic were not Hebrews so I suspect they don't really count as 'proper' god-fearing people. :roll:

History and science are not the same. Are they? No they're not. :lol: History is also not fact - necessarily. It is written by the winners, conquerors and usurpers. The Israelites were slaves in Egypt so they say. The Egyptians say they were cattle raiders and a bloody nuisance. :lol: Recent thought amongst Egyptologists also question whether slaves built the pyramids... :wink:
The Flood - Santorini? Would have caused a massive tsunami of mythic propertions all around the eastern Med. Lots of things that could been worthy of being a god-sent flood to punish naughtiness. In some translations of Gilgamesh the King there was a flood and a Noah-type character whom Gilgamesh sought out because he wanted to know the secret of immortality... All stories and not necessarily ones recorded at some stage by Hebrews, who in turn weren't necessarily that culturally advanced, just very acquisitive at getting all the heroes and prophets on their 'side'.

fljotsdale wrote:Mm, yes... but the toxic clouds on earth would've been before the creation, don't you think? In fact the timeline in Genesis would indicate that to be so (as well as the known age of the earth, of course). So the "swaddling' clouds would have been simple water vapour, as indicated by the phrase 'waters over the earth'.

When does creation begin? Day 1 when theb Lord began creating firmaments or Day 7 when he'd done the lot and rested? Where does making Adam & Eve come in that lot? At the end (or Day 6) where evolution also places the human race... :lol: Also how long are these days? :P

Like I was saying it's what people make of the their world view at the time. Socially the human race hasn't really changed too much - we all eat sleep and begat, argue amongst ourselves and have to work for a living in some manner - the technology is different and so is the accumulation of knowledge, but we still use chairs to sit on and lie down to sleep. And tell stories, some of them to illustrate a point. The OT creation, if you leave the time scale out of it, is roughly equivalent to the order of evolution - it puts insects before fish, before amphibians, before reptiles, before birds, before mammals, before us. And yes evolution says mammals were around at the same time as dinosaurs and the Bible doesn't mention the T Rex etc, but 50-30 years ago we didn't know that dinosaurs came before birds and after reptiles did we? Steven Speilberg taught us that! :twisted:

In the end it's all stories that fit the knowledge until the knowledge changes. And the best stories stick - which, for people who accept the teachings of the OT means that the Creator had a brilliant SoH and left all these fossils lying around to annoy scientists - who said that? :lol: :D
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Postby Lady Vetinari » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:19 pm

I believe God does have a brilliant sense of humour ... you just have to look at the Duck Billed Platypus ... and cats ... especially as kittens as they can act really playful!
Otters are quite funny too ...

There are some plants that are odd looking ... how about the giraffe? Aye Ayes and sloths?

All proof to me of God's Sense of Humour.
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Postby poohcarrot » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:49 pm

....but then God created mankind, which is growing exponentially in population numbers and destroying the planet. Ha ha - not!
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Postby Danny B » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:57 pm

Seven(ish) steps towards proof of the presence of a sense of humour in the Creator:-

Step 1:- Establish a singularity, which contains everything in one very small and dense location. (Means of doing this currently unknown.)

Step 2:- Provoke expansion by the utterance of "The Word". (Biblical sources are unclear on what exactly the word was. I personally favour "Kah-BOOOOM!!!" Anything else lacks the proper decorum.)

Step 3:- Watch the celestial dance for a few billion years, as all of the mechanisms you built into your creation to allow for the conditions in which life will thrive to be plentiful slot into place.

Step 4:- Pay close attention to the tiny damp rock orbiting a rather dull star in a relatively uneventful spiral galaxy.

Step 5:- Watch that really quite inventive bald species of ape carefully. They may have potential. They have sentient consciousness, but so do the Dolphins, Whales and the Elephants, all of whom show no inclination to make any real effort to put it good use.

Step 6:- Goggle in astonishment that one species manages to produce Sir Isaac Newton and J.S. Bach within a single generation.

Step 7:- Laugh uproariously at the fact that said species, despite voluminous evidence of the mechanisms which power the experiment, persist in believing that a magic man made them out of clay, rather than furthering their own knowledge and bettering themselves like any sensible species would do, before the experiment's self-regulatory algorithms decide they've existed long enough without doing anything worthwhile and hits the reset button by means of comet impact, wandering black hole or gamma ray burst. A species who'll believe that magic man with a penchant for pottery figurines stuff, will believe anything.

Step 7(b):- Feel a momentary sadness about the bald ape's failure to see the real beauty of their universe, then put them from your mind and move on to that ambitious species of vertebrate squid-like creatures in the next galaxy but one. One of them looked up at the stars and wondered what they were actually for. Try not to get your hopes up too high. So many previous species have failed...
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:58 pm

poohcarrot wrote:....but then God created mankind, which is growing exponentially in population numbers and destroying the planet. Ha ha - not!


Which is why believers have the advantage, if only to have someone to pray to - or blame if they're bad believers.

If god doesn't exist then s/he/it can't care what happens to us and we sink or swim anyway. At least sinking doesn't require much effort and is soon over :twisted:

Maybe it's just a question of how brave you are? :(
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:32 am

...or a question of if you are going to take responsibility for your own actions, or pass the buck onto a mythical sky pixie.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:46 am

That too, yes. :(

But which is brave and which is folly? At present I tend to gravitate to sorting my own personal part of the mess, if I can do something about it and ignoring everything else. Nothing's that clearcut and I'm no longer brave enough to hope too much and too scared to look for answers from others.
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Postby Fljotsdale » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:24 pm

Sorry not to reply earlier - looking after my young grandson today hasn't give me much time to do more than pop in for a few minutes.

Jan Van Quirm wrote: Fljotsdale - I'm doing a comparitive allegory of evolution against the OT creation myth. :wink:


okaaaaaayyyyyy.... :)

Jan Van Quirm wrote:So evolutionary 1st human humans calculated from the last Ice Age (in fairness as nobody really knows when they 1st appeared)

ok
Jan Van Quirm wrote:so, 20,000 years ago v. OT's first couple of humans 6,000 years ago. Evolutionary people would not have been writing at that stage of development would they?

Unlikely.
Jan Van Quirm wrote:But they and their kids would have been able to tell stories of the early times and so have at least another 8,000 years or so to start embellishing orally during the Old and New Stone Ages, when they got around to learning how to make fired clay pots and start making little marks on wet clay, which gradually became symbols of language? :P


Keeping up nicely...

Jan Van Quirm wrote:The Assyrians and other fertile crescent cultures could most definitely write around the 6,000 (and counting) year mark, so maybe that's where the OT dating stems from, but Assyrians, though semitic were not Hebrews so I suspect they don't really count as 'proper' god-fearing people. :roll:


Prolly not! :lol: But, 6,000 yrs ago (leaving the bible out of it), the Habiru would have developed writing too, though (bringing the bible back in) it would mean that 6,000 years ago Adam & Eve could write fine... :wink:

Jan Van Quirm wrote:History and science are not the same. Are they? No they're not. :lol:


Science is a part of history; city building, bridge building, astrology/astronomy, etc, are all historical and science. Yes? :)

Jan Van Quirm wrote:History is also not fact - necessarily.


True; not necessarily. Though some glimmers of fact almost always show through. :wink:

Jan Van Quirm wrote:It is written by the winners, conquerors and usurpers.


Oh yes. Indeedy.

Jan Van Quirm wrote:The Israelites were slaves in Egypt so they say.


I think there is quite a bit of evidence for it.

Jan Van Quirm wrote:The Egyptians say they were cattle raiders and a bloody nuisance. :lol:


Well, they would, wouldn't they?! :lol:

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Recent thought amongst Egyptologists also question whether slaves built the pyramids... :wink:


I think there is evidence for that, but I'm not sure of my ground here. They were certainly slaves, but whether employed in the highly skilled task of building pyramids is another matter.

Jan Van Quirm wrote:The Flood - Santorini? Would have caused a massive tsunami of mythic propertions all around the eastern Med. Lots of things that could been worthy of being a god-sent flood to punish naughtiness.


Mm. I've never been a big fan of a global flood a mere 6,000 (give ot take a few years) ago. Earlier, yes, there is some evidence for it, but not in such recent times, and not, I think, during the lifetime of the human race.

Jan Van Quirm wrote: In some translations of Gilgamesh the King there was a flood and a Noah-type character whom Gilgamesh sought out because he wanted to know the secret of immortality...


Yeah, I've read parts of the Gilgamesh Epic

Jan Van Quirm wrote:All stories and not necessarily ones recorded at some stage by Hebrews, who in turn weren't necessarily that culturally advanced, just very acquisitive at getting all the heroes and prophets on their 'side'.


Or maybe even the other way round? :wink:

Jan Van Quirm wrote:
fljotsdale wrote:Mm, yes... but the toxic clouds on earth would've been before the creation, don't you think? In fact the timeline in Genesis would indicate that to be so (as well as the known age of the earth, of course). So the "swaddling' clouds would have been simple water vapour, as indicated by the phrase 'waters over the earth'.


When does creation begin? Day 1 when theb Lord began creating firmaments or Day 7 when he'd done the lot and rested? Where does making Adam & Eve come in that lot? At the end (or Day 6) where evolution also places the human race... :lol: Also how long are these days? :P


Genesis 1 verse 1 says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

So creation appears to have 'begun' with the creation of the universe.

The rest of Genesis chapters 1 & 2 deals with the creation related to the earth:
Gen 1:2 "Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep..."
so obviously all the formation of the planet was complete, but so far there was no land above the surface of the water. The 'formless' condition applied to the lack of land above water, not to a formless, amorphous condition of the planet, obviously; so verse one covers the whole of the development of the universe up until the time the planet we live on was ready for life

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Like I was saying it's what people make of the their world view at the time. Socially the human race hasn't really changed too much - we all eat sleep and begat, argue amongst ourselves and have to work for a living in some manner - the technology is different and so is the accumulation of knowledge, but we still use chairs to sit on


I doubt early man (or Adam & Eve) had chairs! :lol: Maybe a log or a rock... :)
Jan Van Quirm wrote:and lie down to sleep. And tell stories, some of them to illustrate a point. The OT creation, if you leave the time scale out of it, is roughly equivalent to the order of evolution - it puts insects before fish, before amphibians, before reptiles, before birds, before mammals, before us. And yes evolution says mammals were around at the same time as dinosaurs and the Bible doesn't mention the T Rex etc,


No, but it does mention 'every moving animal upon the ground' so that would cover all forms, even giant reptiles, wouldn't it? After all, the record doesn't mention ANY specifc type of creature by NAME, does it? No lions or deer, or mice or tyrannosaur... :wink:

Jan Van Quirm wrote:but 50-30 years ago we didn't know that dinosaurs came before birds and after reptiles did we? Steven Speilberg taught us that! :twisted:


Ah... good old Speilberg... where would we be without him? :lol:

Jan Van Quirm wrote:In the end it's all stories that fit the knowledge until the knowledge changes. And the best stories stick - which, for people who accept the teachings of the OT means that the Creator had a brilliant SoH and left all these fossils lying around to annoy scientists - who said that? :lol: :D


That would be our Terry. Wasn't in in Strata? I loved that book! Not sure Terry was the first to think of it, though.

What does SoH mean, please? Never been much good with acronyms. :?

BTW, I'm a non-believer. I just happen to have a fair bit of biblical knowledge because I used to be a believer. (Or, at least, I tried hard to fool myself I was for a good many years!), and I love religious debate!

I'm no good at Theology, though. I've never been much for church doctrines, though I still remember some of the Catholic theology I picked up at school. :|
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:38 pm

Well in that case - snap! :lol: I gave up on being a catholic when I was about 12 although I made full use of skipping lessons for mass when suitable feasts presented themselves, especially if it clashed with Maths (our school had a chapel so you could do Ash Weds mass and the less full on feasts if they fell just outside half term - we were a fair way out of town in those days :P ).

The Egyptians of course had slaves, though the term is capable of interpretation as 'tribes paying obeisence' which is slightly different to the whips and chains image (someone restrain pooh please :wink: ). Some of the latest studies are saying that not that many slaves would have been working for much of the time on the pyramids and then only on the really muscle-heavy tasks - certainly not skilled work like dressing the stones or, as architects (sorry Cecil B. De Mille... :wink: ). The Hebrews certainly would have been 'interacting' with the Egyptians at some stage and the story of Joseph is certainly true to some extent. The Hebrews as a distinct nation likely occurred after the Hyksos, the Shepherd Kings of semitic origin who occupied and ruled Lower Egypt (the Med end of the Nile - and not so far from present day Israel and Palestine) so it's safe to assume that relations between the cultures were not 'friendly' by any means. Again historically a pharoah (who it's possible may have been a Hyksos king as the pyramids are in Lower Egypt) did 'let the people of Moses go'.

fljotsdale wrote:I've never been a big fan of a global flood a mere 6,000 (give ot take a few years) ago. Earlier, yes, there is some evidence for it, but not in such recent times, and not, I think, during the lifetime of the human race.

Me either with bells on :P But there have been conditions to make that possible around the eastern Med before, during and after biblical times that may have been 'borrowed'. Also 'global' in ancient times needn't have been that international... :lol:

The parting of the Red Sea? Yeah, right - :lol: Well it's possible with massive tsunamis (the part before the big wave hits when the sea sucks back from the land), such as the explosion of Santorini would have caused and may have reached the delta area of both the Nile and the marshlands around the Red Sea. That occurred between 2000 and 1000 BCE and takes in both the Hyksos period and the rough time of the Exodus. Not so sure about the Great Flood, but there have been other bigger volcanos that have exploded in the region and possibly during eras were there may have been humans capable of recounting it in some way.

In the evolution creation scenario, the super-volcano that formed the Ngorongoro Crater in Tanzania exlpoded 3 million years ago which is obviously way too early for Homo Sapiens - however, the crater is not so far away from Olduvai Gorge (roughly 10 miles away in fact) where the very earliest fossil evidence of Australopithecus Afarensis were found - and date from nearly 4 million years ago. The Ngorongoro explosion was massive (much bigger than Krakatoa) and is not that far geologically from the Indian Ocean on the same tectonic fault line that created the Great Rift Valley and separated Madagascar from the mainland continent... Also close to the 'cradle of mankind' who were halfway along their evolution from very clever anthropoid ape to a modern human and so most likely highly self-aware. Maybe sentient enough to pass on dreadful memories in some manner? Probably not, but we don't know all the story.

fljotsdale wrote:But, 6,000 yrs ago (leaving the bible out of it), the Habiru would have developed writing too, though (bringing the bible back in) it would mean that 6,000 years ago Adam & Eve could write fine...

Indeed - but not in the evolutionary comparison. The Bible for Christians is not the same as the Bible for Hebrews however. The OT is substantively a history for ancient Judea and Canaan - not necessarily an exhaustive one but good enough. This is what Wiki (also not exhaustive or indeed an authority) has to say about when the OT was likely written -
wiki wrote:The oldest material in the Hebrew Bible - and therefore in the Christian Old Testament - may date from the 12th century BCE[citation needed]. This material is found embedded within the books of the current Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, which reached their current form at various points between the 5th century BCE (the first five books, the Torah) and the 2nd century BCE

The Hebrew versions have to take precedent over the Christian. The Hebrew scribes and priests no doubt made copies of copies of copies going back beyond the 1200 BCE, so the OT would indeed cover 6000 years (and counting) of Hebrew history, but it does not contain the original accounts and so (in evolutionary, scientific terms) we cannot say absolutely that OT happened exactly as it's set out for modern readers because it is inevitably diluted in the passing down and the possibility of faulty translation. Also if Adam and Eve were alive whislt the Assyrians and their new-fangled writing arrived on the scene 6000 years ago then they obviously were not the only human beings on the planet? :wink:
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Postby poohcarrot » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:13 pm

Yikes! :shock:

It's battle of the long posters! :lol:
(who both actually appear to have the same views but are still arguing. :roll: ) :lol:
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Postby Tonyblack » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:54 pm

poohcarrot wrote:Yikes! :shock:

It's battle of the long posters! :lol:
(who both actually appear to have the same views but are still arguing. :roll: ) :lol:
It's the War of the Words! :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:55 pm

:roll: It's called pedantry (aka academic debate) and it's fun! Whether we believe in the subject matter or not is entirely irrelevant :D

You should get the hang of it pretty fast I'd say pooh but then your biblical knowledge can only stretch so far :twisted: :wink:
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Postby Fljotsdale » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:58 pm

poohcarrot wrote:Yikes! :shock:

It's battle of the long posters! :lol:
(who both actually appear to have the same views but are still arguing. :roll: ) :lol:


Well, why not?! :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:25 pm

:oops: Forgot about SoH! :lol: It means sense of humour.

Terry does the 'decoy' fossils gag in a few of his books - at least one of the Science of the Discworld books and I think in the Last Continent on the island where the other wizards meet the Creator? Not sure but also possibly in Eric when Rincewind accidently sets off creation with his dodgy sandwich... :lol:
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Postby Fljotsdale » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:30 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote: Well in that case - snap! :lol: I gave up on being a catholic when I was about 12 although I made full use of skipping lessons for mass when suitable feasts presented themselves, especially if it clashed with Maths (our school had a chapel so you could do Ash Weds mass and the less full on feasts if they fell just outside half term - we were a fair way out of town in those days :P ).


Heh! I was 15. Left (Catholic) school, left church. Though I had actually mentally left quite a few years before. Had to keep going to church while at school, though. We had a 'balcony' affair above the aisle, to which all us slackers made a bee-line when filing in orderly manner into the church for mass. It was a school attached to a sort of small nunnery with their own priest (the mind now boggles at what might have got up to) and the church belonged to them. The 'balcony' room was where the nuns went for mass - when it wasn't full of kids!

Jan Van Quirm wrote:The Egyptians of course had slaves, though the term is capable of interpretation as 'tribes paying obeisence' which is slightly different to the whips and chains image (someone restrain pooh please :wink: ). Some of the latest studies are saying that not that many slaves would have been working for much of the time on the pyramids and then only on the really muscle-heavy tasks - certainly not skilled work like dressing the stones or, as architects (sorry Cecil B. De Mille... :wink: ). The Hebrews certainly would have been 'interacting' with the Egyptians at some stage and the story of Joseph is certainly true to some extent.

Yes, iirc, it is authenticated in some Egyptian records, as well as the biblical account.
Jan Van Quirm wrote:The Hebrews as a distinct nation likely occurred after the Hyksos, the Shepherd Kings of semitic origin who occupied and ruled Lower Egypt (the Med end of the Nile - and not so far from present day Israel and Palestine) so it's safe to assume that relations between the cultures were not 'friendly' by any means. Again historically a pharoah (who it's possible may have been a Hyksos king as the pyramids are in Lower Egypt) did 'let the people of Moses go'.


Distinctly unfriendly, one cannot help but feel! Both biblically and secularly.

Jan Van Quirm wrote:
fljotsdale wrote:I've never been a big fan of a global flood a mere 6,000 (give ot take a few years) ago. Earlier, yes, there is some evidence for it, but not in such recent times, and not, I think, during the lifetime of the human race.

Me either with bells on :P But there have been conditions to make that possible around the eastern Med before, during and after biblical times that may have been 'borrowed'. Also 'global' in ancient times needn't have been that international... :lol:


Yes, there are well-authenticated accounts - as seen on tv documentay/historical/geographical programmes :wink: - of stuff in the Meditarranean; plus the Caspian (I think it was the Caspian - I could be wrong) Sea, when a land-barrier collapsed between the main body of water and a smaller one to the north of it. Of course, it would be minor in comparison, but pretty destructive and dramatic to people in the area (Cro-Magon and Neanderthal) who would have stories about it.

Jan Van Quirm wrote:The parting of the Red Sea? Yeah, right - :lol: Well it's possible with massive tsunamis (the part before the big wave hits when the sea sucks back from the land), such as the explosion of Santorini would have caused and may have reached the delta area of both the Nile and the marshlands around the Red Sea. That occurred between 2000 and 1000 BCE and takes in both the Hyksos period and the rough time of the Exodus. Not so sure about the Great Flood, but there have been other bigger volcanos that have exploded in the region and possibly during eras were there may have been humans capable of recounting it in some way.

Yeah, they've done the Parting of the Red Sea on tv as well. :D Perfectly feasable, apparantly, iirc. And it would naturally be attributed to a god. Though I doubt the Egyptians would have been happy about it. :wink:

Jan Van Quirm wrote:In the evolution creation scenario, the super-volcano that formed the Ngorongoro Crater in Tanzania exlpoded 3 million years ago which is obviously way too early for Homo Sapiens - however, the crater is not so far away from Olduvai Gorge (roughly 10 miles away in fact) where the very earliest fossil evidence of Australopithecus Afarensis were found - and date from nearly 4 million years ago. The Ngorongoro explosion was massive (much bigger than Krakatoa) and is not that far geologically from the Indian Ocean on the same tectonic fault line that created the Great Rift Valley and separated Madagascar from the mainland continent... Also close to the 'cradle of mankind' who were halfway along their evolution from very clever anthropoid ape to a modern human and so most likely highly self-aware. Maybe sentient enough to pass on dreadful memories in some manner? Probably not, but we don't know all the story.


Somehow I doubt if Australopithecus would have been capable of passing on the memory to their descendants. Tiny brain. Neanderthal, now - they were pretty smart, bigger brains than ours - but they weren't there that long ago.

Jan Van Quirm wrote:
fljotsdale wrote:But, 6,000 yrs ago (leaving the bible out of it), the Habiru would have developed writing too, though (bringing the bible back in) it would mean that 6,000 years ago Adam & Eve could write fine...

Indeed - but not in the evolutionary comparison. The Bible for Christians is not the same as the Bible for Hebrews however. The OT is substantively a history for ancient Judea and Canaan - not necessarily an exhaustive one but good enough. This is what Wiki (also not exhaustive or indeed an authority) has to say about when the OT was likely written -
wiki wrote:The oldest material in the Hebrew Bible - and therefore in the Christian Old Testament - may date from the 12th century BCE[citation needed]. This material is found embedded within the books of the current Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, which reached their current form at various points between the 5th century BCE (the first five books, the Torah) and the 2nd century BCE

The Hebrew versions have to take precedent over the Christian. The Hebrew scribes and priests no doubt made copies of copies of copies going back beyond the 1200 BCE, so the OT would indeed cover 6000 years (and counting) of Hebrew history, but it does not contain the original accounts and so (in evolutionary, scientific terms) we cannot say absolutely that OT happened exactly as it's set out for modern readers because it is inevitably diluted in the passing down and the possibility of faulty translation.


Yes, history books, the OT, but not written as such; more as histories of God's dealings with His People. And very detailed and consistent, too, for the most part. Credit where it's due. And, as such, it was never intended to be a book for passing on scientific knowledge. However, where science IS touched on, briefly, it is accurate. It describes the water cycle, for one, and also shows that they believed the earth to be a globe. Not bad for the time they lived.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that there was very little faulty translation. Do you have any idea of the care they took when copying old writing as they wore out? They were obliged to check and count every single letter before they wrote it, again after they wrote it, and again when a the word was completed, a line was completed... The very oldest fragments we have vary by barely a letter here and there from the most recent. They were so careful because they truly believed they were transcribing the very word of God and were therefore fearful of making errors.

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Also if Adam and Eve were alive whislt the Assyrians and their new-fangled writing arrived on the scene 6000 years ago then they obviously were not the only human beings on the planet? :wink:


Yeah... but the bible shows the Assyrians were Semitic, like the Jews - the descendents of Shem (of Ham, Shem and Japheth fame; the sons of Noah). :P And since the flood was at the time of Noah and his sons... :P :lol:
Last edited by Fljotsdale on Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I found evolution more magnificent than Eden; I found it more wonderful to be a rising ape that a falling angel.
Terry Pratchett on Darwin's Evolution of Species
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