Sir Pterry's 10 fave books.

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Postby poohcarrot » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:08 pm

I often shout my mouth off with zero source to back me up. :lol:
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Postby Fljotsdale » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:15 pm

poohcarrot wrote:
Anyway, according to the Bible there were no other humans and all the begatting was incestuous. :D


True. Adam and Eve's many children (it wasn't just Cain and Able and Seth, but 'sons and daughters' (Genesis 3:20; and Genesis 5:3-5) who are not named in th bible. And since the bible des not indicate any other people were in existence, they had to breed with each other. But apparantly it wasn't geneticaly harmful back then cos they were so close to perfect. (Or could it be BECAUSE they mated with close relatives that the life-span dropped so dramatically?)

Anyway, by the time of Moses, the Law was given that banned marrying close relatives.
Last edited by Fljotsdale on Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Fljotsdale » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:17 pm

poohcarrot wrote:Um...er...if people used to live up to the age of 800, how come the world is only 6,000 years old? :?


They only lived that long and more up till the Flood. But even so, the 6,000 yr existence of the earth is a bit tricky. :wink:
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Postby Fljotsdale » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:29 pm

poohcarrot wrote:I often shout my mouth off with zero source to back me up. :lol:


I've done that too! :oops: :lol:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:51 pm

Let's leave the dodgy imprecise science (on both sides) go for a bit. What do you think of the Bible as allegory (leaving aside the buffoon dating system of a 6,000 year old planet as I think that comes from somewhere other than the Bible)?

A lot of the OT was written a very long time - at least as long as Methuselah lived - after it actually happened. This was because
    a) they hadn't discovered reading and writing yet, because -
    b) they were too busy begatting and working out how to do hunter/gathering and learning how to do pottery like the Ancient Iraqians etc in The Land of the Two Rivers (Tigris & Euphrates) -
    c) and then they needed some sort of respite from all that difficult technology (having been kicked out of the garden of Eden where they didn't need it of course) they'd also invented fireside singing, drinking and smoking funny plants so they could chill out a bit from all the serious inventing, and so -
    d) when they DID get around to learning how to read and write, a lot of their 'racial memory' oral folkore and histories had gone a bit - wonky :roll:

On the 'spheres of pure cloud' allowing greater longevity - Venus of course has cloud cover made up of toxic gases. On Earth, there would also have been toxic clouds of volcanic gases for several eons - which of course is mentioned in the Bible (on one of the earlier days of the creation week) and also when the Ice Ages were in transition and sea levels rose with global warming - water vapour yes, but resulting in a highly humid and foggy climate. So a possible Equatorial Eden there in which life expectancy would be short - for plants at least, but also rainforest biospheres are based on rapid fertilisation of decaying plant and animal material (this is the bit where I'm exercising 'psychic' biology and botany). Anyway enough food for thought there :twisted:
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Postby Dotsie » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:02 pm

Sorry Jan, but there certainly weren't any humans around on the early Earth, when toxic clouds were abundant. Any mention in the bible would just be coincidence. As for the end of an ice age causing a rise in sea levels and a foggy climate, that was 10,000 years ago, so I'm thinking that any amount of fireside stories wouldn't keep that alive. I'm not sure what point you're making about rainforests, but there would have been more vegetation everywhere (mostly) thousands of years ago, so it wouldn't be hard to imagine the perfect garden wherever you lived.

The bible looks like a mish-mash of stories from lots of different sources, some of which try to explain natural events, some of which are probably made up to try to get people to behave better. Trying to find scientific explanations for biblical events seems to be a bit pointless to me, surely you either believe it or you don't :?
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Postby poohcarrot » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:07 pm

Dotsie wrote:The bible looks like a mish-mash of stories from lots of different sources, some of which try to explain natural events, some of which are probably made up to try to get people to behave better.

Totally agree.
Some islands were completely decimated by the 2005 tsunami. In 2,000 years time they will probably saying a Noah-like flood was wot done it.

Surely ice caps melting at the end of the last ice age, devastating earthquakes, meteor hits or earth crust displacement theory (my pet) could have caused a massive worldwide flood, rather than God being a bit miffed at the human race. :?
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Postby Dotsie » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:47 pm

There haven't been any floods on that scale since the last ice age (too long ago for the bible). But a really big flood (ie as far as the writer can see) could be interpreted as the same.
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:53 pm

:roll: Why did I think I probably wouldn't be understood when I said ...
I wrote:What do you think of the Bible as allegory (leaving aside the buffoon dating system of a 6,000 year old planet as I think that comes from somewhere other than the Bible)?

I'm saying, clearly I thought, :roll: that I don't believe the OT version of creation - but I'm trying to make sense of how they probably got it so garbled with bits and pieces that sort of fit, but are completely cock-eyed.

Wiktionary wrote:Allegory
1.The representation of abstract principles by characters or figures.
2.A picture, book, or other form of communication using such representation.
3.A symbolic representation
.
It's a creation story right? How people back then were trying to make sense of their world and the creator they thought must have been responsible for it? Without the benefit of telescopes and proper scientific principles of hypothesis etc. :roll:

I just read the article that you found on Terry having a 'God moment' pooh, and in that he makes several significant observations in there on the OT as a social/philosophical resource as opposed to the NT, which does make a lot more sense of things as a guide to living. The OT is not primarily a guide to living as such, although the Ten Commandments are there, if a little wobbly in places and, more sensibly on the inadvisability of not eating some dairy products, seafood or pork in a desert climate if you haven't mastered refridgeration yet...? It really down to perceived knowledge and what 'technology' is around as to how your local reality or belief systems can be portrayed isn't it?

A guy in a cloud chucking lightning spears at mortals who've displeased him (or ravished young ladies as a gold shower or a swan) is just as ridiculous as saying we're all descended from one couple - but the one couple theory is more 'viable' (since we know that incest has been around since the year dot :( ) as a creation myth. The OT is basically a book of myths and legends and genealogical lists (the marathon begetting part from Jacob onward) that have been passed down the ages in oral form to start with as imagined/conceived by 'simple' people trying to make sense of life and in doing so they slapped on such symbolism as most clever ape-descended beings are more than capable of so that their children and friends could understand where they came from and make more sense of their world and their state of being.

The Bible is a collection of stories that uses allegory heavily in places to explain things that were, at that time, inexplicable. The historical facts that are also in there - such as the slaves of Israel (and the Egyptians have a very different recorded tale to tell of that period and the Exodus than the Bible version) - have lent credence to other, earlier, far more tenuous tales including the creation sequence.

Take Adam & Eve as symbolically representative of Homo Sapiens as the peak of creation and suddenly you're left with the not so incredible notion that the people that Cain went off to live and begat with in the Land of Nod after killing his brother might have been the humans that didn't get the privilege of starting out in Eden.
The story of Cain and Abel itself may be an allegory of Homo Sapiens Sapiens (Cro-Magnon) exterminating their sub species 'brothers' Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis as per the current popular hypothesis on how the Neanderthals disappeared. Even Cain and Abel's roles 'fit' as Neaderthals were primarily hunters and Cro-Magnon the first to master subsistence agriculture...

Evolution is a much more informed and reasoned theory/account, but still essentially taught as a non-fiction story of how the Earth and all living things that are or were on it came to be. The Bible is what was there culturally for the Hebrews to make sense of the same creation -without the benefit of our knowledge in the 21st Century. Maybe 6,000 years hence our descendants will be laughing their heads off at Darwin and wondering why we all fell for it? It's just explanatory stories and like Granny knows, some stories persist and some refuse to die and so gods are conceived in the minds of men, the stories spread and belief is love-bombed into the faithful. :P

Of course there are 'co-incidences' where the Bible will get something a bit right - they just got it bit right more than the Ancient Egyptians and Greeks on the creation side of things that's all. I personally think the Greek account of Zeus and all those mymphs much more inventive and entertaining whilst mankind was developing its taste for story-telling during the last long cold snap :wink:
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:13 pm

Much later edit: Oh Bugger! Sorry chaps - read no further! :oops: :roll: :oops: :roll: :oops: :roll: :oops: :roll: :oops:

The erroneously duplicated post has been deleted. :oops:

No excuses - not a drop has passed my lips today even though the balance of my mind was disturbed by the housemate butting in like a simpleminded horse whilst I was attempting to sort my drugs out - but that was earlier on. :roll:
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Postby chris.ph » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:05 pm

a couple of nice short ones then jan :lol:

dotsie could never believe in the bible, as a scientist there is just too much proof of evolution and carbon dating wouldnt bloody work :lol:

After 6000 yrs we could all be related to people around the world but they would have to be good swimmers,even going on recentish events 60%of europeans show some asian racial dna after being invaded by the mongol hordes and the interbreeding thereof
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Postby Jan Van Quirm » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:29 pm

:lol: Well I was waiting in for a computer engineer who never showed so I had nothing much else to do Chris :P

The Bible's for Jews and Christians to believe in as they can and, like I said elsewhere (if not in here) Jesus hardly stood by a fair portion of the OT, so implicit 'gospel truth' should never be applied to the OT from a Christian perspective at least. For everyone else the OT's a book of ancient tales and bastardised history in a nutshell and IMO :wink:

"Asian" DNA can also be misleading as we Celts should know Chris - we went east (at least as far as India) several centuries before the mongols went west remember! :twisted: :lol:

Actually there's archaeological evidence of Asians being present in prehistoric Europe so no one knows for sure which is the more prevalent as a 'source'. There's also no absolute certainty that modern man evolved in Africa come to that - it's just that the oldest skeletal remains that have been found so far were found there. :shock:
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Postby Lady Vetinari » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:35 pm

I looked at the list of others on there ... Got more in common with Ben Elton ... :lol:
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Postby Fljotsdale » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:48 pm

Jan Van Quirm wrote: Let's leave the dodgy imprecise science (on both sides) go for a bit. What do you think of the Bible as allegory (leaving aside the buffoon dating system of a 6,000 year old planet as I think that comes from somewhere other than the Bible)?


Open to question, since a lot of the bible is actual provable historical fact. And, if you believe in Jesus as a real person and as the 'son of god', then you have to accept what he said - and he believed in the Garden of Eden and in Adam and Eve. Indeed, the whole point of his dying for mankind was to restore to us that Paradise and the innocence which Adam and Eve had lost. If you are a christian you have to believe in Adam and Eve and the direct creation of this earth, and all the life on it, by god.

Jan Van Quirm wrote: A lot of the OT was written a very long time - at least as long as Methuselah lived - after it actually happened. This was because
    a) they hadn't discovered reading and writing yet, because -

I shouldn't be too sure of that! :) The Assyrian king Ashurbanipal spoke of "reading inscriptions on stone from before the flood" (Light from the Ancient Past, by J Finegan, published 1959. Which is quite a while ago, but the translation of the Assyrian is probably still valid.) But of course, it could just have been a local flood, not THE flood. :wink: Also, though, the bible shows that before THE flood, human beings had developed city building, musical instruments, forging iron and copper tools, etc (Genesis 4:17, 21,2); so it is easily likely they also had some form of written language. It is at least not beyond the bounds of possibility.

Jan Van Quirm wrote:b) they were too busy begatting and working out how to do hunter/gathering and learning how to do pottery like the Ancient Iraqians etc in The Land of the Two Rivers (Tigris & Euphrates) -
c) and then they needed some sort of respite from all that difficult technology (having been kicked out of the garden of Eden where they didn't need it of course) they'd also invented fireside singing, drinking and smoking funny plants so they could chill out a bit from all the serious inventing, and so -


Since they could already smelt iron and copper, I think you are doing them a bit of an injustice here. :)

Jan Van Quirm wrote:d) when they DID get around to learning how to read and write, a lot of their 'racial memory' oral folkore and histories had gone a bit - wonky :roll:


um... not if they could write. 8)

Jan Van Quirm wrote:On the 'spheres of pure cloud' allowing greater longevity - Venus of course has cloud cover made up of toxic gases. On Earth, there would also have been toxic clouds of volcanic gases for several eons - which of course is mentioned in the Bible (on one of the earlier days of the creation week) and also when the Ice Ages were in transition and sea levels rose with global warming - water vapour yes, but resulting in a highly humid and foggy climate. So a possible Equatorial Eden there in which life expectancy would be short - for plants at least, but also rainforest biospheres are based on rapid fertilisation of decaying plant and animal material (this is the bit where I'm exercising 'psychic' biology and botany). Anyway enough food for thought there :twisted:


Mm, yes... but the toxic clouds on earth would've been before the creation, don't you think? In fact the timeline in Genesis would indicate that to be so (as well as the known age of the earth, of course). So the "swaddling' clouds would have been simple water vapour, as indicated by the phrase 'waters over the earth'.

Another thing I thought, but forgot to write in my earlier post, was that if the exposure to radiation after the flood affected the lifespan of humans adversly, it would've had a similar effect on plant and other animal life. I wonder why the bible doesn't mention that plants and animals lived incredibly long lives (for each species) as well? Imagine flies living for, say, ten years, and breeding the whole time.... :shock:
I found evolution more magnificent than Eden; I found it more wonderful to be a rising ape that a falling angel.
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Postby Fljotsdale » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:01 pm

chris.ph wrote:
After 6000 yrs we could all be related to people around the world but they would have to be good swimmers,even going on recentish events 60%of europeans show some asian racial dna after being invaded by the mongol hordes and the interbreeding thereof


We are all related: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1058484.stm
I found evolution more magnificent than Eden; I found it more wonderful to be a rising ape that a falling angel.
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